OSDev.org

I'm sick and tired of being attacked by the same people over and over again so I will not engage in any discussions here anymore. If I decide to make an exception because I want some intelligent input from people like Brendan, I'd appreciate if the other regulars that only post insults and attacks will refrain from posting in those threads.

In other words, could people please re-read rule seven of the official forum rules. Got it, will do.

Good luck with your kernel :O

--Peace out
gravaera

I think you have a difference of opinion with other forum members rdos. This happens to everyone, imho you could just take it on the chin and not treat it as a personal attack, or you could shy away here and others would lose out from not having your help and advice. Your choice, but if it was me, I wouldn't let others grind me down...

brain wrote:I think you have a difference of opinion with other forum members rdos. This happens to everyone, imho you could just take it on the chin and not treat it as a personal attack, or you could shy away here and others would lose out from not having your help and advice. Your choice, but if it was me, I wouldn't let others grind me down...

But it really WAS the personal attack.

aod wrote:

brain wrote:I think you have a difference of opinion with other forum members rdos. This happens to everyone, imho you could just take it on the chin and not treat it as a personal attack, or you could shy away here and others would lose out from not having your help and advice. Your choice, but if it was me, I wouldn't let others grind me down...

But it really WAS the personal attack.

Imho anyone saying something to you over the internet isn't that personal, a complete stranger telling you that you suck or questioning your parentage (just an example ) is nothing to get worked up about as its below even petty playground name calling that kids do. this is just my opinion though you're welcome to your own

I'm equally sick and tired of the arrogant attitude towards many newcomers that come here to discuss OS development. Apparantely, if they haven't done extensive searches on Google, the Wiki, and the forum, they have no business asking questions, and are put-down with insults. Even worse is that most of the offenders that do this have no real experience with OS development themselves, but only have read up on how things are done (in popular OSes), and possible have modified some tutorial, and built a cross-compiler. IMHO, people that haven't built a OS ground-up have no business insulting newcomers and telling them how to do things, and alike.

I certainly have no interest in participating on a forum for OS development where the main theme is ego-boosting and forming mob-constellations to harass newcomers and people with non-mainstream ideas. I'm only interested in intelligent discussion of OS concepts within a friendly environment where you are not told that your ideas are bad just because you are ignorant and you don't share a majority view. Good new ideas does not come from "following the herd", but from thinking for yourself. Just because a newcomer hasn't read a few university courses on OS-development, built a cross-compiler (for GCC, naturally), and modified a popular tutorial (most know which one I mean), does not mean their ideas are worthless and can be insulted because the one proposing them is a moron.

I want to see some change in this area, otherwise I will not post much more here. The forum owners themselves should see this as a big problem for the forum, as the current attitude will scare away many people interested in OS development.

Maybe one idea would be to make a dedicated sub-forum for basic, initial, OS development, like making boot-loaders, setting up GDT, switching to protected mode, creating cross-compilers, setting up emulators where people that want to can help newcomers, and where no insults of any kind are allowed. Then the rest of the forum could be on a slightly higher level than that, as I suspect people get annoyed about reading about these issues all the time.

I agree on the part that we should keep this forum a friendly place. The difference is our perception of what a friendly place means. People usually dont attack newcomers without good reason. It is how questions and oppionions are expressed that is important. If they have done their homework and ask a proper question I rarely see someone beeing rude in return even if it is about something very basic. Quite often I see people asking questions here who obviusly lack some fundamental knowledge or haven't even tried to debug their problem and they deserve a kick in the bum especially when they continue to repeat the same mistake over and over again. In my oppionion we are not here to baby-sit. This is clearly beeing told to people visiting here.

There is no ego-boosting or harassment going on here and honestly you are making a big deal out of this. I haven't followed your threads in detail but you seem to have very strong and different oppinions that no one else shares and of course that upsets people especially if they are beeing told they are wrong. This happened to Copernicus too and it worked out pretty well for him in the end (or was he killed by the church? dont remember...) but anyway you get my point. You can't make friends and at the same time tell them how ignorant they are.

Anyway, I'm sorry you feel mistreated and I wish you good luck in the future.

Also I'd like to say that if anyone knows they are harassing for no reason take a good look at yourself and what you are doing.

I will only post announcements here from now on

I can only agree that ignoring the people who can't fit with you in the same room is a good start for improving the world.

Enjoy it out there.

I agree that there should be a newbie subforum where people can ask questions without seven levels of hell immediately being emptied over them if they've asked something lazy or ignorant. The trouble is that the serious questions that are of interest to more established OS writers are mixed in with others from people who have decided to write an OS before they've bothered to learned how to program, but that could be fixed very easily if all the time-wasting stuff was in a newbie forum which could be ignored completely by the experienced members, unless they've got a bit of time on their hands and are feeling in a charitable mood. A lot of the time, the newbies themselves would be able to answer each other's questions without needing expert help, so it simply wouldn't matter if they were taking lazy shortcuts by asking for direct links to the best sources of information on a particular topic instead of googling through piles of c**p for many days and finding nothing. The reality is that you can save yourself hours of hunting just by asking someone to point you towards the best information, so why not allow it in a "Newbie/Lazy Questions" subforum?

On the other issue, I've watched rdos being insulted over and over again while not returning any insults and can see exactly where he's coming from - his patience is an example to the rest of us, but it's also hidden the degree to which the continual attacks against him have been wearing him down. We all need to try to learn to correct things when someone says something we disagree with without attacking each other so aggressively, and maybe the best way to do that is simply state what you think the truth is on the point in question and leave it for people reading the thread to work out for themselves who they want to believe. There is far to much glee being expressed when errors (whether imagined or real) have been exposed. I'm sure most of it is intended as a bit of fun, but it isn't always read that way by the person on the receiving end and we have to watch continually how we're behaving and think carefully about the way we come across. For the record, I don't think there's a single nasty person here and I actually like the people I've had fallings out with, but this text-based communication doesn't always make us come across the way we would like to, so it's good to be reminded from time to time to try to err on the side of caution.

DavidCooper wrote:On the other issue, I've watched rdos being insulted over and over again while not returning any insults and can see exactly where he's coming from - his patience is an example to the rest of us, but it's also hidden the degree to which the continual attacks against him have been wearing him down. We all need to try to learn to correct things when someone says something we disagree with without attacking each other so aggressively, and maybe the best way to do that is simply state what you think the truth is on the point in question and leave it for people reading the thread to work out for themselves who they want to believe. There is far to much glee being expressed when errors (whether imagined or real) have been exposed. I'm sure most of it is intended as a bit of fun, but it isn't always read that way by the person on the receiving end and we have to watch continually how we're behaving and think carefully about the way we come across. For the record, I don't think there's a single nasty person here and I actually like the people I've had fallings out with, but this text-based communication doesn't always make us come across the way we would like to, so it's good to be reminded from time to time to try to err on the side of caution.

Oh please the whole thing is petty on both sides. Most of this crap isn't up for interpretation, processor designers decided segmentation was a dead end years ago. Yeah there's far too many people on this forum who try far too hard to prove they're the smartest guy in the room. But this little pissing contest wasn't about that. It was about one man arguing for a viewpoint that has little if any factual basis behind it. I doubt anyone would have a problem with the design rdos is using, if didn't crow so loudly that it was in fact superior to the alternative and blame some third party for all the negative effects of his implementation (compiler devs, language devs, library authors, etc.). Combine that with an openly stated viewpoint "anyone who hasn't built an OS from the ground up shouldn't tell someone else how to do things" and you've painted a fairly big bullseye on your back when it comes to attracting criticism. Yeah it was childish the way his video systems thread was ruined, and largely unnecessary. But still the idea that he's just been unfairly attacked at every turn here and not in fact ignoring or deflecting more tactful forms of critique for a while now just isn't true. A little humility goes a hell of a long way.

rdos wrote:I'm equally sick and tired of the arrogant attitude towards many newcomers that come here to discuss OS development.

It's a bit more than black-n-white. I understand that many newcomer has such a lame question that it's clear he/she knows nothing about theory, also it's too often that the question is already answered on the wiki. But you are right in that it's commonly assumed that every newcomer's question is a such, and it's no good.

Apparantely, if they haven't done extensive searches on Google, the Wiki, and the forum, they have no business asking questions, and are put-down with insults.

Believe me, I had more than a decade of research behind me, I have in depth knowledge on OSes they never ever heard of, still I got insults.

Even worse is that most of the offenders that do this have no real experience with OS development themselves, but only have read up on how things are done (in popular OSes), and possible have modified some tutorial, and built a cross-compiler. IMHO, people that haven't built a OS ground-up have no business insulting newcomers and telling them how to do things, and alike.

Soooo true! Also, they have never heard of forum rules or rfc1855.

I certainly have no interest in participating on a forum for OS development where the main theme is ego-boosting and forming mob-constellations to harass newcomers and people with non-mainstream ideas. I'm only interested in intelligent discussion of OS concepts within a friendly environment where you are not told that your ideas are bad just because you are ignorant and you don't share a majority view. Good new ideas does not come from "following the herd", but from thinking for yourself. Just because a newcomer hasn't read a few university courses on OS-development, built a cross-compiler (for GCC, naturally), and modified a popular tutorial (most know which one I mean), does not mean their ideas are worthless and can be insulted because the one proposing them is a moron.

Couldn't agree more. When I came up with a new idea about how physical memory should be maintained, I got only insults from people who could not even understand it. It was despite of the fact I included comprehensive analysis and the fact that I have a working reference implementation in my OS.

I want to see some change in this area, otherwise I will not post much more here. The forum owners themselves should see this as a big problem for the forum, as the current attitude will scare away many people interested in OS development.

Maybe one idea would be to make a dedicated sub-forum for basic, initial, OS development, like making boot-loaders, setting up GDT, switching to protected mode, creating cross-compilers, setting up emulators where people that want to can help newcomers, and where no insults of any kind are allowed. Then the rest of the forum could be on a slightly higher level than that, as I suspect people get annoyed about reading about these issues all the time.

Dear moderators, mark his words.
Introducing junior and senior levels would be great imho.

Cognition wrote:Most of this crap isn't up for interpretation, processor designers decided segmentation was a dead end years ago.

That's not the point. Segmentation was not the issue in the thread. Video systems was. It was not necesary to add the segmentation issue into the discussion, it wasn't necesary to start arguing about C vs asm again, as the only thing I posted when I reactivated the thread was related to the redesigned font system.

Cognition wrote:But this little pissing contest wasn't about that. It was about one man arguing for a viewpoint that has little if any factual basis behind it.

I didn't start to argue about C vs asm or flat vs segmented. I tried very hard not to get involved in that discussion again, but eventually failed since this was the only thing people wanted to discuss.

Cognition wrote:I doubt anyone would have a problem with the design rdos is using, if didn't crow so loudly that it was in fact superior to the alternative and blame some third party for all the negative effects of his implementation (compiler devs, language devs, library authors, etc.).

I haven't done any of these. There is no superior language, nor any superior memory model. Rather, languages have advantages / disadvantages over other languages, just as memory models have advantages / disadvantages over other memory models. For instance, it is obviuos that assembly has adavantages for low-level programing, and C has advantages for complex drivers, and for maintainability. It is also obvious that segmentation has advantages for finding memory corruption errors, but disadvantages in speed because of segment register loads and validation. When people claim that C is superior and segmentation is inferior, they don't know what they talk about. In regards to segmentation, I have myself taken the consequences of flat memory model being more friendly with C compilers, so I use it exclusively for applications. So I don't find any memory model superior, nor any language superior. After all, if flat memory model and C were superior, we would not have segmentation and assembly. Nobody would have invented it.

Cognition wrote:Combine that with an openly stated viewpoint "anyone who hasn't built an OS from the ground up shouldn't tell someone else how to do things" and you've painted a fairly big bullseye on your back when it comes to attracting criticism.

I stand by that statement. There are too many people here that claim to know what is best, yet they have not coded anything of what they talk about, rather refer to hearsay and popular accounts. I find such claims pretty useless. It is in the same division as when a newcomer doesn't know C or assembler comes here and asks about OS development. In fact, I would find it more acceptable to insult those "I know what's best, but I haven't done anything significant" people than newcomers that don't know C or assembler. The latter group is likely to improve, while the first is not.

Apparently, rdos lied in his topic title and Cognition missed last thread's killer. Troll and bait successful:

Combuster wrote:Deja Vu.

Faith is what makes people believe things even in the face of proof of the contrary. Rdos' religion is that he's always right (often at the cost of the rest of the world). This is like, the umpteenth time we've had this discussion and somehow it always works.

Let's shut up and put that guy on our ignore lists before someone blows himself up in the name of faith...

I hoped it wouldn't have been necessary, but yet, factual accuracy and segmentation have once again been mentioned - by the very person who said he wouldn't.

turdus wrote:Couldn't agree more. When I came up with a new idea about how physical memory should be maintained, I got only insults from people who could not even understand it. It was despite of the fact I included comprehensive analysis and the fact that I have a working reference implementation in my OS.

I'm interested. Can you point me at the topic you posted it in please?

Dear moderators, mark his words.
Introducing junior and senior levels would be great imho.

This idea has been floated much in the past, and the general consensus is that the people with knowledge will immediately aim for and reach the level required for a "senior" member and then no longer help junior members.

Climbing the ladder then kicking it away, if you will.