OSDev.org

Just asking weather I need to go to uni or not.

I do already have a TAFE diploma, Do I need a degree?

I would say: go to college. Regional diplomas aren't universally (No pun intended.) accepted, and you never know what your future holds.

For example, you could end up in Nova Scotia looking for a tech job, and find yourself unable to get one just because employers there have no idea what a TAFE is.

Note, however, that college is by no means a magic ticket for a job, it just boosts your chances of getting one.

IMHO, it's not about how much you know, but your desire to learn, and your love for what you do that will make you great. Don't depend on college to do that for you.

Oh, and, please don't take the advice of a bunch of people on a forum too seriously, especially when it comes to important decisions such as this.

The TAFE course wasn't your standard TAFE course. For example, we spent:
- 3 semesters on C++
- 4 semesters on unix (both shell development, and unix c++ programming), if i remeber correctly, 2 unix classes and 1 c++ using unix
- 2 semesters on UML
- A semester on accounting (yes accounting).
- Two semesters of java (which I completed in one).
- 2 semesters on Delphi
- 1 semester on data structurs
- 1 semester on graphical design.
NOTE: that's the subject that relate to programming (not included is networking, computer hardware, configuring operating systems (both Microsoft and Linux)).

So I have the skills & passion, but because they assume that a TAFE diploma a less skilled. They think that you need experience in the language, in order to be able to program.

The problems I face when looking to get into this field is experience (some require 3 years experience and be a graduate). It's not that I don't love programming (I spend at least 6 hours a day programming, and googling), it's just that it's very hard to get into the industry, let alone without a degree. Although I do have 1 and half years experience in programming, it seem to be not enough to be even considered. Last project was a tsunami warning system.

The thing that's holding me back from going to uni is that green paper stuff.

Also do employers consider open source contribution as experience?

A university diploma and programming experience qualify you for two rather distinct fields of work. A CS diploma is usually required for fields where much theory is involved, while actual experience is the #1 qualification for the more hands-on type of development work.

What is the field you would most like to work in? If you're into systems programming or that kind, you pretty much require a CS diploma. If you want to spend your days coding, debugging and maintaining, get more experience - timed contracts, internships, you name it.

B.E wrote:- A semester on accounting (yes accounting).

You'd be surprised. I had two semesters of accounting, two semesters of business science and one semester on presentation to go along with the computer-related stuff I learned.

They think that you need experience in the language, in order to be able to program.

And I think they are right in that... someone who doesn't know the project language has a long start-up phase during which he can't really contribute to the project, and might actually bind up a developer who has to show you the ropes. I don't say you are not able to pick up a language quickly, but you'll be not as good as someone with that experience for quite some time. Many SW projects don't even live as long as it takes to turn someone who's had courses in C++ into someone who groks the stuff.

...it's just that it's very hard to get into the industry, let alone without a degree.

I know. It takes some skill in presenting yourself the right way. For example, never tell people that you "spend time googling", talk about "research" or "expanding your skills" or somesuch. Just a minor detail, but when one piece of paper (your job application) is all the space you have for presenting yourself, it requires high polish to stand out.

Also do employers consider open source contribution as experience?

Usually not. You can list it as "hobby" activities in your resume, which will show a prospective employer that you really are into software development, but unless you're on someone's payroll (i.e., doing it professionally), OSS isn't count as (professional) job experience simply because it's not the same rigor as a 9-to-5 job.

Solar wrote:
I know. It takes some skill in presenting yourself the right way. For example, never tell people that you "spend time googling", talk about "research" or "expanding your skills" or some such. Just a minor detail, but when one piece of paper (your job application) is all the space you have for presenting yourself, it requires high polish to stand out.

Just a question, people ask me what kind of salary I want (which is one of most retarded questions), which I respond to 20k to 60k. Is this the best response?

No, definitely not. Consider for a moment what you are telling them: You are "cheap" enough to work for 20k, but "greedy" enough to work for three times that sum, and you have no idea what you are actually worth...

Find out what someone with your kind of qualification earns in your country in the position you're aiming for. Tell them a number, a definite number. You can bank it a bit ("I might be off here, take it as initial proposal") and don't be surprised if the offer they make you is below what you asked for. But giving them a number to start with shows that you are aware of your worth, not afraid to make a point, and flexible enough to bargain.

and don't be surprised if the offer they make you is below what you asked for.

So, like in any haggling situation, put your initial bid at what you think you are worth plus, for example, £2k. Then when they haggle you down, it won't be so bad. Remember though to keep the amount you overprice yourself to a minimum - pricing yourself £60k over will just result in a flat out "no".

For example, I know that a graduate fresh out of university in my country (the UK) can expect an average wage of £24k before tax. I'd price myself at ~£26k and see what they say.

@Solar:I think you are a software engineer...
so how much a software engineer in Europ eaarn?by month..
may be I'm not specific, also I'm not talking about your salary,
I'm speacking generally,I'm now a student 3rd year of informatic engineering faculity and I intend after graduation to go to Europ
and work there,so what do you think about that?

Thanx.

Correct.

Salaries vary as much as 20% for the exact same job even within a country, and variances up to factor 10 between countries are not unheard of when you compare western and eastern Europe. Add to that the variations in background, qualification, and social skills (yes, they factor heavily into this!), and you see why it is next to impossible to tell anyone what he should ask for, especially if you don't really know that person's work.

Quoting my salary publically could actually get me fired, so all I will say is this: I personally know people with virtually identical age, background, and qualification, both of them listed as "Software Engineer" in their contract, one unlucky fellow being at the bottom end of the range B.E gave after years of on-and-off jobs, and one at the top of B.E's range who hasn't been unemployed for a day since he entered the field.

Diplomas / certifications are important, and steadily working your way up the salary range is also important, but even more important is to build a track record of being a successful, valued employer, and to build a skill set that also includes "soft skills".

Okay,to be more specific,I'm thinking of travelling to Germany
to continue my study and get a PhD,but while doing this
I want to work there,but the point is I would love to work with low level
stuff,using C or assembly ,so can I find a job like this?
It's not like I m'not good at other thing such as DB,web design
or artificial intelligent ...,but I like low level and I want to work
with what I like.

Thanx.

*sigh*

Of course it is possible. Whether or not you will find a company that, after reading your resume and two or more job interviews of an hour or more, will consider you for hiring, that is a different matter entirely - and how am I to judge without having read your resume and having done those interviews?

One (rather obvious) piece of advice from me is 'Don't burn your bridges' - if you want to go to Germany to get a job and study, do your research properly and try to secure places as early as possible, before giving up your current line of work in your home country!

Cheers,
Adam

You want to get a full time job while also researching for a PHD?

1) That will put a lot of strain on you.
2) That will probably cause some companies to reject you, as they know that you will not be focussing 100% on their work.

Full time? Forget it.

One possibility - some companies may sponsor you to do a PhD if a) you are doing a research project which will benefit them and/or b) you will work for them for a minimum amount of time afterwards. This is (relatively) common in my line of work but may not be so common in IT, I'm not sure - got to be worth investigating, though.

Cheers,
Adam