OSDev.org

Hey everybody,

I have been lurking a lot but never got around to posting much before. I've got a bit of a problem now, however, so perhaps you guys can offer me some advice.

(P. S. If you don't feel like reading all of this, I'd be grateful for your opinion on at least the last two paragraphs, even if you skip the rest)

I'm studying Computer Science in a local university at the moment, first year (I'm 19). I've been into programming since I was 12. I started out with Delphi because that's what my brother had been using, then I switched to a variation of basic called Dark Basic, then I switched to C and C++. In between C "periods" I've used Java and C#. I've done various freelance jobs using PHP, MySQL, JavaScript and standard-abiding (as much as possible, at least) xhtml+css. In high school I was in the International Baccalaureate programme where I studied Computer Science (CS) at the higher level (had to use Java, but it didn't really teach me anything I didn't already know about it) + spent one of the years in IB studying English as a native language (analyzing literary works).

I love programming and I don't think about it in terms of what language I'm using. I perceive it more as a logical exercise where the goal is to find the optimal solution to a problem with the given language.

Two years ago I had a summer job at a company that develops web apps. They were very satisfied and impressed with the decisions I made and now, two years later, they've contacted me and asked if I want to work for them again.

(I realize that this may sound like I'm pretty full of myself but I have a point here, please bear with me. What I'm trying to get across is, is that I like programming, I am not a complete beginner and I'm an enthusiastic learner. I'm a pretty humble guy actually, the most praise I'd give myself seriously would be that I'm "not the worst" )

My problem is this - my girlfriend moved to the UK to study (she was in the IB programme too). I'm not satisfied with the prospect of having to wait for 4 years for her to come back, so my idea is to become a self-studying student (not sure what the term for that is but the idea is that I only have to show up to do some exams once every few months) and move to UK. This will increase the time I have to spend in uni till I get a degree and means I have to give up my scholarship and pay tuition, but apart from that it is a very appealing idea.

In UK I would very much like to get a programming job, if possible. I'm confident that I could manage it as I'm under the impression that new employees get to fix bugs and code what they're told to (i.e. mostly mechanical programming, instead of problem anaylsis and software design) (If anybody knows better, please correct me on this).

Do you think it's possible for a foreigner (though with reasonable language skills) without a degree (yet) and with almost zero official work experience to put on a CV (though I've done a lot of freelance jobs and intensively pursued every bit of software engineering, programming, etc. theory for the last 7 years) to get a job at a software development company?

What I want to try is to create a sort of portfolio to demonstrate my skills to companies to which I'd apply. I'm hoping that some example work + a carefuly thought out, custom tailored, attention grabbing CV and a motivational letter could do the trick.

Well, at least it's worth a try.

So, what do you think? If you were responsible for hiring new employees, could/would you overlook the absence of degree and invite a candidate to an interview, if he/she was passionate about the job and demonstrated some skill?

I'm betting that many members here have real programming jobs, perhaps you can tell me how reasonable/unreasonable this idea is and how draconian are the average hiring policies at IT companies.

Cheers

Ok, ask yourself what are the chances of the relationship surviving the distance or surviving altogether. Then ask yourself how long you wish to have a career, what kind of career and if this migration interferes with it.

Then ask yourself what the chances are you will find another girlfriend or possibly better a future wife.

Your 19, you shouldn't have to worry about these thing.

But seriously if your relationship is true and strong, it will survive the time apart and will become even stronger.

oh yeah, i wouldn't hire a passionate person unless he also had a degree on the subject, but that is me.

Hi,

I'm in the UK now and I can't see any company hiring such a young coder without a degree or HND (higher national diploma - a practical work-based qualification).

I also hate to say it but England is not the easiest place to immigrate into (if you follow legal channels, anyway ) - I don't think the authorities would be happy letting a foreign national in who doesn't have a job lined up and is (essentially) without skills. I'm not saying you're without skills but it's the absence of a degree or higher education.

On the plus side your English is excellent (what country do you come from, incidentally?) - I'm sure you could obtain a tourist visa and visit your girlfriend. Also I'm sure she'll come back from time to time so it wouldn't be like a 4-year break.

I know how you feel though - I didn't ever get homesick for my country until I met my current GF - now I don't like going abroad without contact with her at all

Maybe you should sit down and discuss it with your girlfriend and see what she thinks? Especially about how strong the relationship is. There's no point in wasting your life following someone who'll dump you in a year!

To reiterate the above - I'm 20, a student on work placement coding for a living for a year - My company would never hire an unskilled (notice the use of that word again - it's not derogatory but it's the category you fit into, which isn't good) employee. Degrees and especially diplomas like the HND are so widespread.

Sorry for the bad news fella, good luck!

James

PS: That said, this country is drasically short of engineers. Although you don't fit into that category, you could maybe try for tech support?

Why not telephone a large company like IBM and try and arrange 'work experience' for a year or something? They'd pay you less than a regular employee but it'd be enough to live on and they'd help you get a visa. That's the option I'd go for!

I don't know about the UK, but hereabouts (Germany) I'd estimate your chances to get a computer-related job interview without qualification (diploma, degree, or hands-on experience) to be next to nil. Those companies who would possibly interview you are those you wouldn't want to work for if you have a family to feed.

We must be carefull not to be too pesimistic here, fx. i have no edducation really, but still i could get a programming job here in denmark, it woulndt be anything big, i would probably be working with php or simular, but still, if you have something to show them, you can get a job without an edducation, it really depends on what you want.

Now if I heard correctly, you're 19, right? You distinctly *don't* have a family to feed.

OK, down to practical matters: do you know anybody in England? The only way to get a job anywhere with no references and no degrees (I've done it, yes.) is to know somebody with a good name who can vouch for your skills.

BTW, "big ups" for knowing Delphi !

Crazed123 wrote:Now if I heard correctly, you're 19, right? You distinctly *don't* have a family to feed.

He wants to follow his girlfriend into another country. So either it's serious (i.e., family), or it's infatuation (and the whole thing is a pretty bad idea)...

Yes, someone vouching for your skills can help somewhat in getting a job.

Zacariaz wrote:We must be carefull not to be too pesimistic here

It's always difficult to judge the situation in a different country, so I'll shut up now.

Being in the UK, I would agree with Solar - the chances are next to nil.

However an internship or "work experience" as I mentioned above could be good for you - I'm on "work placement" earning £15,000 (although that was arranged through the university so I'm "somewhat skilled").

Try and contact big companies, woo them with your English skills and see if you can work for them for a year or two. They may even help you to get a residential visa, which without knowing a UK resident (your GF will be on an educational visa and doesn't cover spouses) is hard to get!

James

Thanks for the compliment on language, James That's the work of Cartoon Network and Lucasarts dialogue-heavy adventure games (oh and I'm from Latvia, which means that I don't need a visa).

As for the relationship, I like to think that the relationship is more than a simple infatuation She hasn't dumped me for 3 years now, I don't think she will anytime soon. I'm not really worried about the relationship being in danger due to the long distance, it's just that I want to be there with her. Sure, it's easy to visit her, plane tickets cost like 70 GBP both ways (if you book in advance) but that's plan B. If there is any chance at all of me finding a way to support myself there and living with her, I'm going to find it Hell, if worse comes to worst, I'll just do manual labor.

Even though it's more than a simple infatuation, it's not a "family to feed" either. Her parents are supporting her while she's in the UK and when she finally gets her degree, I'll have one too and will be able to get a proper job to support her.

I don't know anybody in UK (well I do, but unfortunately they are even less qualified than I am) but maybe I could get my current employer to vouch for me? Would anybody care for that? I'm working for him part time and he's a good friend of my brother (it's how I got the job) so I reckon he'd gladly recommend me.

You suggest arranging for some work experience, James, but isn't that usually unpaid? I'd be happy to work for close to nothing but I do need at least a little income.

Thanks for your optimism, Zacariaz Gives me hope. I have a few PHP projects I've done that I could maybe show off.

Crazed123 wrote:BTW, "big ups" for knowing Delphi Cool !

kirsis wrote:Thanks for the compliment on language, James That's the work of Cartoon Network and Lucasarts dialogue-heavy adventure games (oh and I'm from Latvia, which means that I don't need a visa).

Awesome, that'll make it easier!

As for the relationship, I like to think that the relationship is more than a simple infatuation She hasn't dumped me for 3 years now, I don't think she will anytime soon.

Sounds pretty rock-solid. Respect for that, I know what it feels like moving away from someone that close to you.

I'm not really worried about the relationship being in danger due to the long distance, it's just that I want to be there with her. Sure, it's easy to visit her, plane tickets cost like 70 GBP both ways (if you book in advance) but that's plan B. If there is any chance at all of me finding a way to support myself there and living with her, I'm going to find it Hell, if worse comes to worst, I'll just do manual labor.

Availability of jobs depends on the area in which you plan to live. Whereabouts did you have in mind?

Even though it's more than a simple infatuation, it's not a "family to feed" either. Her parents are supporting her while she's in the UK and when she finally gets her degree, I'll have one too and will be able to get a proper job to support her.

How will you get a degree while you're working here?!! incidentally, why don't you apply to study here? I suppose it is rather expensive for foreign nationals... :S

I don't know anybody in UK (well I do, but unfortunately they are even less qualified than I am) but maybe I could get my current employer to vouch for me? Would anybody care for that? I'm working for him part time and he's a good friend of my brother (it's how I got the job) so I reckon he'd gladly recommend me.

Employer recommendations are part and parcel of any job application. Without one you'll stand less chance of getting a job, degree or not.

You suggest arranging for some work experience, James, but isn't that usually unpaid? I'd be happy to work for close to nothing but I do need at least a little income.

It depends. Many large companies offer internships that are paid. Usually enough to live on. Ask around! who knows maybe somewhere there's a company that is low on it's "eastern european diversity quota" and needs more?

Thanks for your optimism, Zacariaz Gives me hope. I have a few PHP projects I've done that I could maybe show off.

Put the URL on your application. They will visit it if they're considering you at all. Also note that if you have a personalised email address (like mine: james_AT_jamesmolloy_DOT_co.uk) they will visit the site it belongs to to try and find out something about you. So make sure it looks half-decent!

James

Hi kirsis, i am from UK and i agree with the rest, your chances of get a programming job is zero.
If you have no degree, you have no chance. Also remember you have to compeat with the whole of the EU, as a example, we had 300,000 people just the same as you, that came from Poland to the UK in the last 12 months, plus a lot with degree's.

There lots of jobs in England, but they are not programming jobs. But you will be made most welcome.