OSDev.org

I've been thinking recently, is hacking wrong? There are some sites on the internet (HackThisSite.org that give you opportunities to hack with their permission, which IMHO isn't wrong. But is it wrong to hack someone else's computer, without them knowing? What if you're hacking a criminal?

This is all hypothetical and all, but it should make for good discussion.

I don't think hacking is bad unless you damage someone else's property somehow. Hacking helps understanding a lot more things that you can't learn by just using the computer as a regular user. However, it is illegal in the US no matter if you damage something or not.

"Wrong" could mean ethically wrong, or legally wrong. I think it is quite OK that hacking other people's computers is illegal (which it is, in most countries). There are a very few cases where it is illegal but still ethical to do so. Most hacking for "self education" or "security testing" can be done using dedicated "target dummies" so you don't damage other people's productivity.

Solar wrote:"Wrong" could mean ethically wrong, or legally wrong. I think it is quite OK that hacking other people's computers is illegal (which it is, in most countries). There are a very few cases where it is illegal but still ethical to do so. Most hacking for "self education" or "security testing" can be done using dedicated "target dummies" so you don't damage other people's productivity.

I'd have to agree.. In house testing for education sounds ethically correct.. Some companies pay 3rd parities to attempt to "crack/hack" into things also.

Blatantly breaking into someones system and modifying content is simply childish and immature.. Apparently there are some moral "crackers/hackers" though that just display a specific page on your site.. (But leave your content backed up..) or send you an email informing you that you're using exploitable software. (They do exist right?..)

I have to say that a lot of people confuse hacking/cracking though...

It's a real PITA.. Lots of annoying people scanning IP rages on a daily basis.. maybe IPv6 connectivity will be a good thing..

Brynet-Inc wrote:I have to say that a lot of people confuse hacking/cracking though...

Agreed. Most people use 'Hacking' when they mean 'Cracking'. In contrast to cracking, hacking is legal and i guess several of us are hacking on a regular basis. Whether it is morally wrong depends from case to case (hacking being a relatively broad subject).

However the discussion's apparently about cracking.

Cracking is bad in any form. Attempting to break your own security is IMO not cracking since you have consented to allow you/someone else in the computer (even though that is the outcome you wouldn't want). Similarly, breaking into your own house isnt a crime, nor is asking somebody else to try and lift your front door out of its hinges to see if it can be done.

What if you're hacking a criminal?

Compare this to tapping someone's phone: If you're not a cop with a file of legal papers in the back of your car, its wrong. Wether cracking criminals is morally right or wrong is probably a debatable topic. IMHO if you dont provoke such practice, who cares if they do it to someone else, if you do, guess why.

I don't think hacking is bad unless you damage someone else's property somehow.

You might get information which you are not allowed to have. Damage may very well include loss of time, loss of intellectual property, and might be psychologically damaging as well. Which is exactly why cracking is illegal independent of what you do after that.

Combuster wrote:Most people use 'Hacking' when they mean 'Cracking'.

I think hacking is bad too. We should engineer software instead, not hack it.

Brynet-Inc wrote:Apparently there are some moral "crackers/hackers" though that just display a specific page on your site.. (But leave your content backed up..) or send you an email informing you that you're using exploitable software. (They do exist right?..)

Actually, I had to do the following as an assignment for a university course a year or so ago: find a site that allows SQL injection and use it to retrieve information you shouldn't normally be able to access.
I managed to get an old version of some guestbook system to tell me the hash of the administrator password. That information is somewhat useless in itself, but still not something the software should divulge. Neither I nor (AFAIK, of course) my teacher tried to do anything malicious with this information, and the site administrator was sent an e-mail suggesting she update the software to the latest version.

About the course: it's called "Hackers Hut". The idea is to gain insight into information security by teaching us to think like the attacker.
Note: the course description ends with "Illegal activities are strongly discouraged", which is true. IIRC at least the first hour or two of the course was spent discussing various related laws and prescribed punishments, as well as examples of (malicious) hackers who got caught.

By the way: people here may know of the teacher from his page on keyboard scancodes, linked from the wiki page on Keyboard Input.

Hackers are the best coders in the world and without them there would be no internet etc. I have a great respect for hackers (as in, i think of them as hacker, not as in they think of them selfs as hackers).
Now some of you disappoint me, has i see most of you as having above average intelligence, but you fall for the media hype, of anyone that breaks into some ones PC or into a bank network etc, is a hacker, they are not a hacker, but a criminal .
They may use programs made by hackers, but true hackers do not break in to people PC.

The OS Dev community, could learn a lot from the hacker out there, as they seem to code great programs and tuts, that OS Dev people can only dream about, also the OS Dev, leads could learn not to keep saying things like READ THE FAQ, if they do no not know the answer to something, also newbees can learn from hacker newbees and say thankyou now and again.

So HACKER are cool, CRIMINALS are not, please learn to see the difference.

If your still not convised, try listen to some hacker podcasts
http://www.ddphackradio.org/

PS: If you want a example of who i would call a true hacker, some one like "Tomasz Grysztar" of Fasm fame.

Dex wrote:Hackers are the best coders in the world and without them there would be no internet etc. I have a great respect for hackers (as in, i think of them as hacker, not as in they think of them selfs as hackers).
Now some of you disappoint me, has i see most of you as having above average intelligence, but you fall for the media hype, of anyone that breaks into some ones PC or into a bank network etc, is a hacker, they are not a hacker, but a criminal .
They may use programs made by hackers, but true hackers do not break in to people PC.

The OS Dev community, could learn a lot from the hacker out there, as they seem to code great programs and tuts, that OS Dev people can only dream about, also the OS Dev, leads could learn not to keep saying things like READ THE FAQ, if they do no not know the answer to something, also newbees can learn from hacker newbees and say thankyou now and again.

So HACKER are cool, CRIMINALS are not, please learn to see the difference.

If your still not convised, try listen to some hacker podcasts
http://www.ddphackradio.org/

I'm pretty sure any OS developer on this forum will be a hacker to a large degree.

So learning something from them is a bit of a paradox, no?

Wow, this seems to be a hot topic...

When I said hacking, I meant getting into another system and then leaving, not touching anything, not viewing anything, just being able to say that you broke in.

I would not hack any system which I haven't had permission to hack already, just in case you are thinking that I'm some amoral computer genius (imnsho, anyway).

I also asked because for a project for school we have to investigate the social and ethical issues on a certain part of information technology. I chose hacking, because I know it's such a hot topic these days. Thank you all for the food for thought.

Just one final question, then I'll leave you all to discuss, is it wrong to hack when someone says that you are allowed to hack them? HackThisSite.org is a website where they allow you to hack them, basically getting your skill level up to a greater level. What do you think?

pcmattman wrote:Just one final question, then I'll leave you all to discuss, is it wrong to hack when someone says that you are allowed to hack them? HackThisSite.org is a website where they allow you to hack them, basically getting your skill level up to a greater level. What do you think?

It's perfectly okay to hack into something you have permission to. Especially when it's useful to the party your hacking. (Such as when people hack into systems to see how secure they really are, and then report their results back to the author of said OS.)

pcmattman wrote: Just one final question, then I'll leave you all to discuss, is it wrong to hack when someone says that you are allowed to hack them? HackThisSite.org is a website where they allow you to hack them, basically getting your skill level up to a greater level. What do you think?

Interesting in the sense that it seems obvious that there should be no law agasint people wanting the "crime" commited against them. Then one thinks of euthanasia and we see many cases where the law is not in favour of people's right of there own possesions. In this case though, the law is more a protection for the stupid and mislead. There really should be no need for the law but unfortunately we are far from being the advanced people we think we are.

Also, sites like "HackThisSite" do not increase peoiple's hacking "skill". Life is not an RPG and HackThisSite is far from a broad range of topics. Without becoming the classic preacher of what hacking and cracking really mean, i have to point out that even misconcepted "hacking" requires "real hacking" knwoledge to be truly good. For this reason i somehow see HackThisSite as no threat to the world.

Dex wrote:The OS Dev community, could learn a lot from the hacker out there, as they seem to code great programs and tuts, that OS Dev people can only dream about, also the OS Dev, leads could learn not to keep saying things like READ THE FAQ, if they do no not know the answer to something...

I have it to here seeing a verbal attack on the moderators and / or regulars on this board in every other post you make.

If you don't like it, leave.

Bit of a heated topic, this.

Solar wrote:

Dex wrote:The OS Dev community, could learn a lot from the hacker out there, as they seem to code great programs and tuts, that OS Dev people can only dream about, also the OS Dev, leads could learn not to keep saying things like READ THE FAQ, if they do no not know the answer to something...

I have it to here seeing a verbal attack on the moderators and / or regulars on this board in every other post you make.

If you don't like it, leave.

Only because i get stuff like this

Candy wrote:

Brynet-Inc wrote:

inflater wrote:Wake up, those people who had programmed a TCP/IP stack in ASM, like MenuetOS as mentioned above, and DexOS, are really hardcore skillers! Not like you

inflater

Wow, insulting my intelligence once again eh? "how" exactly would you know the extent of my programming knowledge?

I never said it was impossible, I just seriously doubt anyone would waist their time writing a PHP interpretor in ASM.

Can I hit him? please

Only if you can do so across the internet, without driving by his house

I'm pretty appalled that being able to make an OS in assembly is considered a good thing. It's not intelligence, hardcore knowledge or luck, it's persistence. They're in a way no different from somebody claiming to be from mars for 5 years in a row - really persistent and having enough time to let everybody know.

Your right i will leave .