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I've got nothing on Christianity.

As the sparker of the Mega-Tokyo religion flame-war, I'm going to list my own, make one point, and leave. You'll have to explicitly call me out of lurk-mode.

I'm a Jew. A "Reform" Jew: the kind that have secular lives and don't weird anyone out. I'm also the only Jew here, which weirds *me* out. Normally a large group of smart people will contain substantial numbers of Jews.

My point is this: many people often make points for or against Christianity and extrapolate those points to apply to All Religion. Almost uniformly, these people were raised Christians, and lack in-depth knowledge of what other religions actually do or believe. To make a universal point, base it in universal premises.

L'hitraot!
Crazed123 the Fire-Raiser

Android Mouse wrote:There is no proof whether a God exists or not but athiests believe without proof that he doesn't.

Theists are for that matter just the same.

Normally a large group of smart people will contain substantial numbers of Jews.

IIRC this is caused by the values of the religion. Jews are raised to think differently than the average Christian - even though they believe in the same god. This indeed makes jews more successful in life. (try for once, count the religions of nobel prize winners and compare the results)

Which is why I do not care which religion people are, but how they face life. Also i have to agree with the fact that many people discuss religion with a complete lack of background knowledge, which is just sad.

It does raise another point: several stereotypes based on religion have a value of truth: Due to their religion, people adapt a way of life that is contained in such stereotypes. The common mistake however is to extrapolate the average to everybody or to exxagerate it, which is the fallacy that makes people consider stereotypes a bad thing.

Combuster wrote:Jews are raised to think differently than the average Christian - even though they believe in the same god. This indeed makes jews more successful in life. (try for once, count the religions of nobel prize winners and compare the results)

DAMN, listen to yourself talking. Take your kind of reasoning ("Jews are raised to think differently"), and come to a conclusion that is not favouring the Jewish. Oh, jolly, look at all those cries of "antisemitic!"...

several stereotypes based on religion have a value of truth: Due to their religion, people adapt a way of life that is contained in such stereotypes. The common mistake however is to extrapolate the average to everybody or to exxagerate it, which is the fallacy that makes people consider stereotypes a bad thing.

The common mistake is that too many people get confused when it comes to statistics. Example: Kids born into white-collar families statistically end up with a higher degree of education than those born into blue-collar families (fact). Does that mean that intelligence is hereditary, or does that mean that an environment of well-off, educated families creates an environment that fosters learning?

Careless bias, left, right, and center...

Android Mouse wrote:There is no proof whether a God exists or not but athiests believe without proof that he doesn't.

There is no proof that bollywogglydoodardbilybob exists either but i don't see you complaining that no one has proof that he doesn't before that decide not to beleive in him.

Tyler wrote:

Android Mouse wrote:There is no proof whether a God exists or not but athiests believe without proof that he doesn't.

There is no proof that bollywogglydoodardbilybob exists either but i don't see you complaining that no one has proof that he doesn't before that decide not to beleive in him.

Why does faith need proof!? Faith is the belief in something without proof. Therefore, atheists must be the most uneducated group of them all, because they are looking for proof in something where it is not. It's like looking for palm trees in Antarctica.

Alboin wrote:Why does faith need proof!? Faith is the belief in something without proof. Therefore, atheists must be the most uneducated group of them all, because they are looking for proof in something where it is not. It's like looking for palm trees in Antarctica.

Atheists uneducated? lol..

Sorry but, "Faith" in something that's nonexistent is a delusion..

How can you claim Atheists as uneducated when you yourself are claiming fiction as fact? What's next? The Easter Bunny?

This entire thing is nonsense, Humanity needs evolve before we ever get anywhere.. People "believe" in "God-like" deities when the truth is to hard to accept, It is completely arrogant..

I'd lock you all up in a big white padded room if I could.. I'm embarrassed to be of the same species..

Someone close the topic.. The people with their imaginary friends are bothering me..

Brynet-Inc wrote:Sorry but, "Faith" in something that's nonexistent is a delusion..

You cannot say that something is a delusion unless you know everything. You do not, and therefore, your entire point is void.

Brynet-Inc wrote:This entire thing is nonsense, Humanity needs evolve before we ever get anywhere.. People "believe" in "God-like" deities when the truth is to hard to accept, It is completely arrogant..

Or, are atheists the arrogant ones, because they can't figure out how God's creation works, and instead of working to find the truth, they waste themselves in their fictitious stories that they call science? (Darwin is a prime candidate for this category; That is, if you can call him a scientist...)

There is a lot of truth to evolution Alboin.. You're simply upset because someone has slapped you across the face for being a delusional idiot

Darwin's theory's are clearly true.. and improvements upon the theories are made all the time. The proof is out there if you looked instead of waisting your time defending some bizarre faith in the prehistoric writings of someone who was likely as delusional as you are...

As for trying to find proof for things in such text..

You should try watching a really great show:
Penn & Teller: Bullshit! - The Bible: Fact or Fiction?

It's Episode 19 of Season 2...

Now.. have yourself a good day... ya crazy loon..

BI, please cool it, OK?

I'd be the first to defend evolution against ID / Creationist / ... arguments, if it weren't such a pointless debate to start with. But:

Brynet-Inc wrote:You're simply upset because someone has slapped you across the face for being a delusional idiot

No need to get personal, smiley or not.

And don't try to link the discussion about faith vs. atheism to the evolution / ID debate, it doesn't serve the argument and gives the creationists even more of a stage.

Then close the topic already, This has no place at all on an OSDev forum..

I keep finding similar topics on every freaking forum I go to.. It's considerably annoying and frankly I'm getting tired of so many people blatantly trying to pass off fiction as fact..

Seriously.. Moderators.. close the topic already... 6 pages of senseless fighting/trolling is a bit extensive.

@Alboin:
Christians (And theists in general) believe without proof that god(s) does exist. Atheists believe without proof that god does not exist. This does not give either party the right to insult the other as both have the full right to fill in the gap of a missing proof.
And once again, not all atheists are actively looking to disprove god's existance, nor are all christians actively looking for signs of god. Your logic is flawed.

@Brynet-Inc:
Evolution theory isnt perfect. What we learn is that what has become of it after several hundred years. Darwin had no clue about DNA or whatsoever, he merely gave an explanation for a phenomenon. It is up to the reader to decide wether to accept the theory for describing a lot of cases, or to discard it for the corner cases it does not seem to apply to. Even Newton's classic mechanics have been superseded with light theory, relativity and quantum mechanics for accurately covering the corner cases, while string theory is on its way, but we still use classic mechanics for being nearly perfect for the average case.

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Solar wrote:DAMN, listen to yourself talking. Take your kind of reasoning ("Jews are raised to think differently"), and come to a conclusion that is not favouring the Jewish. Oh, jolly, look at all those cries of "antisemitic!"...

Were I? I was actually concluding that jews were more successful due to being raised differently, and used that as evidence to state that your (parent's) religion has a big influence on later achievements. Excercise for the reader to do the statistics for their religion of choice.
As for the claim of me being antisemitic - that is not how I think. People are unique. I value people based on what they do, not what they are. In the face of discussing groups of people, i can only give claims based on statistics. When I address a religion I almost always refer to the statistical average, and sometimes I might be confusing by not stating this precondition everytime I name a religion.
If it still makes no sense, would you care to explain?

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Seriously.. Moderators.. close the topic already... 6 pages of senseless fighting/trolling is a bit extensive.

6 pages of trolling, your kidding me - i have seen a lot of good arguments along the road. IMNSHO the troll statement here is the question to lock the thread.

Combuster wrote:@Alboin:
Christians (And theists in general) believe without proof that god(s) does exist. Atheists believe without proof that god does not exist. This does not give either party the right to insult the other as both have the full right to fill in the gap of a missing proof.

When did I insult the other party? I said they were uneducated, because they're looking for something where it is not. This was brought on by logic, and is true. Second, I questioned if they were the arrogant ones. This is my own interpretation of atheists, and if it offended anyone I am sorry.

Combuster wrote:And once again, not all atheists are actively looking to disprove god's existance, nor are all christians actively looking for signs of god. Your logic is flawed.

Okay. Many atheists are looking to disprove God's existence (Which is somewhat like chasing windmills; as stated above.) and many Christians are....what? What signs? Christians aren't "looking for signs". Christians believe through faith. Signs are irrelevant.

I have three problems with your defence.

Define "Many"?

If you ask me, the vast majority of atheists are not actively trying to disprove the existance of god.
Take it as an exercise to count the amount of agnostic atheists here (that is, those who believe that there exist no proof), then extrapolate based on the fact that there are several more atheists that just dont care. (or didnt bother to post) Then compare that amount to the number of 'Atheist' votes.

The fallacy here is that you are overgeneralizing, and hence the conclusion of atheists being uneducated is flawed as a result.

Apart from that, "uneducated" is the wrong term. Trying to prove something that has not been done before is not wrong on itself. The fact that there is no proof that god exists is on itself doubtful, so there is no reason not to try proving it. Its "acting on your belief", no more, no less.

Also, it is your belief that dictates you to think 'atheistic fundamentalists' are looking at the wrong place. The target of the remark thinks that they are exactly looking where they should. For said lack of proof of god, there is no excuse to judge atheists based on that. The best wording for it is "Atheists are weird", which is just an opinion.

There is no proof that bollywogglydoodardbilybob exists either but i don't see you complaining that no one has proof that he doesn't before that decide not to beleive in him.

I'm not complaining about anything. I'm just pointing out the fact that both ends of the spectrum believe or disbelieve in relgion without any proof. Yet many atheists try and critize the religious for having beliefs without proof even though they do exactly the same.

Fundamentally, atheists and religious are a lot more similar than both seem to want to admit.