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You don't argue about religion because it's a matter of personal belief.

You don't argue about creationism, intelligent design etc. as if it were a valid hypothesis, because it just adds credibility to them.

Personally I am sure that all of us have not yet seen anything, in any single matter you choose, and I know that my perception, as well as that of any other human is bogus. If I can't even think up a "good and naturally intuitive programming design" no matter how much I try, I can't expect to come up myself with a true argument free from bias to satisfy me or to understand more complex things if I don't get to understand at least all known facts and then keep discovering to have a more complete view as individual.

~ wrote:Even Einstein recognized that so many things of such complexity in the universe must have been made by a higher intelligence.

I don't see all of this as fictional. With an infinite space in the universe there must be also infinite species of incredibly intelligent beings and they are not gods yet. But the point of that is that, when humanity reaches such advancement, there could be another rational species far away who don't believe in higher intelligences just because they are in their own primitive era, whilst we will exist as humanity here, with an unknown intelligence level for them.

Anyway, the universe and its laws don't have its center in humanity; they have always existed and they will always exist independent from us or our little perceptions.

I don't see why not believe, it doesn't surprise me that there are much more advanced beings than we humans. Why is that impressive or hard to believe?

I dont deny the existence of more advanced beings... simply the exitence of an all powerful deity with the ability to shape space and time. As i said, this was a story used to fill in the gaps. Over time people have stopped believing in magic and let it become fiction, i hope the sae happens to reigion. I have a little more faith in humanitys ability to to exist without false hope, in the bliss that is science. We may not have the answers yet, but i prefer not knowing things then filling the gaps with lies.

If i told any of you that there was an invisible man following me around called ted... you would think me mad. People who insist get carted off to loony bins. So why is it that so many people believe these many equal as stupid things?

Tyler wrote:I dont deny the existence of more advanced beings... simply the exitence of an all powerful deity with the ability to shape space and time.

Which very few people even among Christians or Muslims believe in today, and which totally ignores the many religions not having the concept of the all-powerful supreme being (like Buddhism, Shintoism, Wicca, ...).

Jahwe or Allah, despite some of the stuff written in olden books, aren't about smiting someone down with lightning or erradicating the holy people's enemies with plagues and disaster, at least for most of those believing in them today.

For most people, "god", spirituality or whatever is basically a name they put on a vast array of concepts that are beyond our comprehension. Just for example, where does our feeling of "self" come from? Where does it go when we die? Is there really nothing left of the person I loved but a rotting corpse?

Science can give answers here. But even if you accept the scientific answer as a fact, you can still believe that your beloved is still somewhere, and find strength in that belief when otherwise reality would simply crush your soul with grief.

While I don't associate myself with any "set" religion defined by others, I am strongly influenced by the Wiccan religion, which IMHO perfectly sums up my whole view on religion in one of their central sayings:

"If it harms no-one, do what you will."

So what if you think Ted follows you around? As long as it harms no-one (including yourself), why shouldn't he?

Troubles start if you try to convince people that everyone should believe in Ted, or believing in Ted keeps you from "functioning normally".

If I draw power from a tree, a flame, a rock or fresh air, and if I believe I am obliged to give back what I took (e.g. by cleaning a bit of countryside of debris), where is the harm in that?

God isn't dynamically allocated! God was just..there.. kindof like a static variable..or better yet, the program we live in...but I do guess this is no place for a war of flames

I'm not asking any body to be a Muslim but I want to show my viewpoint...
Let's say you entered a strang country ,you don't know any thing about
this country but you see every thing is orgnized well, you see streets,
hospitals,schools,universities,banks,police,big nice buildings,factories,
companies, nice cafes ,very complicated comunnity and much much more of orgnized
stuff,but if you say there is no president or there is not government leading this country you'll not be rational at all.
so people you'r saying all this amazing stuff in the world was created
from nothing???
the closest example for this is human body.
Thanx.

@ abushraf:

Well, that's the point I was trying to make. You believe that all this well-organizedness points to a supreme being that created it. That's fine. You can present it as your view, you can ask others about their views, you can learn and widen your views and you can teach others to widen theirs, if they are willing.

But:

...you'll not be rational at all.

In a sidenote you probably didn't much think about, you just called everyone not believing in a creator "irrational". You just stopped having a belief / religion, and started preaching it. You are looking down on people not sharing your belief.

You think your belief is superior.

And from christianization to witch hunts, from crusades to jihad, this has killed far too many people for us, who we call us "intelligent", to allow this carelessness to continue.

lmao...Dane Cook....

1: *standing beside a stranger(#2)*
2: *sneezes on #1*
1: (after a pause) God bless you
2: actually.. I'm an atheist
1: ok then, umm when you die nothing happens
2: no, I become a fertilizer of the Earth as my body decomposes and I come back as a magnificient tree
1: OK OK, you go off and be a tree and do whatever a tree does, but imagine this, a sweaty man goes running off into the jungle with an ax, and goes to you, the tree, and cuts this tree you are down, and drags you all through this jungle, through all the mud and weeds, and then chips this tree down to make all this paper, and then print the freaking Bible on the paper!

lmao...probably one of the best....mods, feel free to cut that if it's "offensive" but I'm just quoting/paraphrasing someone else

you just called everyone not believing in a creator "irrational".

realy I didn't mean that but I think who dosen't belive in existence
of creator might not seeing the whole picture.

You think your belief is superior.

No not at all I respect every belief

And from christianization to witch hunts, from crusades to jihad,
this has killed far too many people for us,
who we call us "intelligent", to allow this carelessness to continue.

I agree with you.

Solar wrote: Which very few people even among Christians or Muslims believe in today, and which totally ignores the many religions not having the concept of the all-powerful supreme being (like Buddhism, Shintoism, Wicca, ...).

I apologise for my incorrect use of language. I thought you could extrapalate the idea of "fictional things" from my point. Buddhist believe in a world beyond this one and a form of ascension, also in reincarnation. If someone told you they had these ideas and there was no organised religion you would think them mad, why think they are not mad simply because alot of people are stupid enough to believe it.

Shinto is simply the japanese showing there lack of advancement. They still use God like representation for concepts we understood post-egyptian. As for Wicca, if you class that as a religion you miss the meaning of the conversation. People who call themselves wicca are on par with people who honestly believe they go to Hogwarts. No religion that hasn't even existed for a hundred years will ever effect my argument. So all of your examples belief in obviously fictional concepts.

Solar wrote: Jahwe or Allah, despite some of the stuff written in olden books, aren't about smiting someone down with lightning or erradicating the holy people's enemies with plagues and disaster, at least for most of those believing in them today.

Once again you miss my point, i am not trying to disprove any single point (God, afterlife, Zeus can shoot lighting bolts, the bible is all true) I am trying to express the belief that religion is a scam in any form and paramount to beliefing in hobbits and dragons..

Solar wrote:For most people, "god", spirituality or whatever is basically a name they put on a vast array of concepts that are beyond our comprehension. Just for example, where does our feeling of "self" come from? Where does it go when we die? Is there really nothing left of the person I loved but a rotting corpse?

These ideas are simply lack of your ability to try and percieve. Our feeling of self... well that is so obvious i don't even see your point, i am positive i am not being told by any higher being who i am, it is simple fact. If you doubt that you have issues beyond this conversation. The self is obviously not a thing, so it goes nowhere, when you die, your brain stops working. I am sure you also belief that your computers soul goes to heaven every time you turn it off? Once again, you love a person for what they do and how you feel when they are alive... your feelings continue with you when they die, there is no spirit, this fantasy is foolish and though up by backward societies.

Solar wrote: Science can give answers here. But even if you accept the scientific answer as a fact, you can still believe that your beloved is still somewhere, and find strength in that belief when otherwise reality would simply crush your soul with grief.

The weak and foolish require comfort. Exceptence of death brings strength and i dare not insult my dead friends and family by imagining them in some far off happy place when i should sue that room in my mind to remember there good on earth.

Solar wrote: While I don't associate myself with any "set" religion defined by others, I am strongly influenced by the Wiccan religion, which IMHO perfectly sums up my whole view on religion in one of their central sayings:

"If it harms no-one, do what you will."

Why can you not believe this without associating yourself with Wicca. I aplogise for my above comment about "magik" etc if you think that Wicca does not have to associate with this, but ever "Wiccan" i know believes they can do magic and is generally a totally retard who needs to be shot. Personally i manage to harm no one, and infact i have in many cases throughout my life helped people above and beyond damage that my own actions would have caused, and yet somehow i'm not attached to any name.

Solar wrote: So what if you think Ted follows you around? As long as it harms no-one (including yourself), why shouldn't he?

Troubles start if you try to convince people that everyone should believe in Ted, or believing in Ted keeps you from "functioning normally".

This is just you avoiding the fact that i am right. I do not think you or anyone else has the right to decide at what level my interaction with ted becomes "wrong". This would be like you telling me it becomes wrong if i try to convince you people who are real, are real. Clearly if i honestly beleive ted is real, then people will believe me just as little as they should be believed when they claim they are going to heaven.

I know i have helped your argument by saying Interaction with ted does not affect anything, but i hardly need mroe points to show how farsical religion is.

Solar wrote: If I draw power from a tree, a flame, a rock or fresh air, and if I believe I am obliged to give back what I took (e.g. by cleaning a bit of countryside of debris), where is the harm in that?

Absolutely no harm in it. Good on you, like myself you like to be a good person. unfortunately i fail to see the connection to the argument. I am not discussing how not being scum is good, i am making the point, religion is absolute rubbish.

Tyler wrote:The weak and foolish require comfort. Exceptence of death brings strength

...................Wasn't that a belief of the nazis?............The SS's motto was: "accept death and deal death"..........Such beliefs never result in good endings, because there is no honor of human life.......

Alboin wrote:

Tyler wrote:The weak and foolish require comfort. Exceptence of death brings strength

...................Wasn't that a belief of the nazis?............The SS's motto was: "accept death and deal death"..........Such beliefs never result in good endings, because there is no honor of human life.......

There is a difference between people being numbrs and killing and dieing for the Nazi cause, and accepting and and understanding death in order to get on with your life. I obviously do not believe in dealind death to jsut anybody.

Tyler wrote:There is a difference between people being numbrs and killing and dieing for the Nazi cause, and accepting and and understanding death in order to get on with your life. I obviously do not believe in dealind death to jsut anybody.

There is no difference, because you believe that man is nothing special and just a monkey, there is no value for human life.

Just for discussion:
It seems to me that the most of the world's modern mass tyrants all thought ideas like this.....hmm.....nazis.....soviets....hmm....I have never heard of a Christian killing millions of people (The middle aged Catholic church didn't kill millions.) It's strange, isn't it?

Salem witch trials anyone

Religion is about as useful as burnt toast..

Hey! Burnt toast with vegemite is the Australian staple food!

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