OSDev.org

Usually I take a neutral standpoint in Linux / Windows flamewars, because I believe both leave a lot to be desired. But I have a problem with propaganda recitations:

JamesM wrote:

When I say Linux, I mean the distros, if I mean the kernel I will say so.

Linux is a kernel. The operating system you refer to is called GNU/Linux. c.f. GNU/Hurd. Please use the correct nomenclature before flaming at other people.

He is using the term "Linux" the way the vast majority of people (including most distros) are using it.

Stallman wants people to call it "GNU/Linux" because he's afraid GNU doesn't get enough of the fame. Which is funny, since he was at the front whenever there was someone to flame because he wanted some attribution credits ("old" BSD licence, XFree86, ...). Aside from his "house distro" Debian, no major distro I know of mentions "GNU" anywhere prominent.

When people compare Windows vs. Linux, they compare KDE / Gnome with the Windows desktop, Konqueror / Nautilus with Explorer, Firefox with Internet Explorer, OpenOffice with MS Office. I think Stallman can stuff his rhetorics where the sun don't shine.

He is using the term "Linux" the way the vast majority of people (including most distros) are using it.

While you are of course correct, my problem stemmed from the fact that the OP confused someone, then decided it was their fault even though he hadn't used the correct nomenclature.

While normally the word 'Linux' suffices to cover the entirety of a GNU/Linux distro, when there is confusion it seems logical it should fall back upon it's original and proper meaning. Telling someone that he is incorrect because he has assumed this is wrong.

It should also be mentioned that although I prefer linux to windows I do not say that "linux is much better and windows sucks". I merely take exception with narrow minded people flaming about a subject they obviously don't or mis-understand. Like for example GNU bash vs cmd.exe. Everyone knows bash is more powerful, and is so for a reason. Cmd.exe was hacked together to provide some sort of CLI for a mainly GUI based system. It's not one of Windows' selling points. Windows is better than linux for some things, but a good CLI is not one of them.

JamesM wrote:While normally the word 'Linux' suffices to cover the entirety of a GNU/Linux distro, when there is confusion it seems logical it should fall back upon it's original and proper meaning.

I challenge the definition of "GNU/Linux" as "proper". Political correct by RMS' standards, yes. Proper? If I find replacements for all GNU tools to build my distro, does it make it any more "MyTools/Linux" than when I use a different window manager, or web browser? A quick guesstimate on my system shows the percentage of GNU packages installed to be < 10%...

I merely take exception with narrow minded people flaming about a subject they obviously don't or mis-understand. Like for example GNU bash vs cmd.exe. [...] Windows is better than linux for some things, but a good CLI is not one of them.

Erm... since bash can be run on Windows as an add-on (Cygwin, for example), and is essentially optional on Linux as well, it doesn't really figure into the Linux / Windows comparison...

Erm... since bash can be run on Windows as an add-on (Cygwin, for example), and is essentially optional on Linux as well, it doesn't really figure into the Linux / Windows comparison...

Well the OP bashed bash as well as Linux generally, so that's why I responded in kind. And I would not class cygwin as an 'add on' to windows - It's a completely nested UNIX environment which has been tailored to work well with the windows native filesystem interface. By that same definition running cmd.exe via Wine could be considered an 'add on'.

Plus, as the OP seems to have trouble customising or installing extra packages, we seem to be talking about the default configuration for both, which in Windows includes neither bash nor cygwin.

...and the "standard installation" for Linux could be said to not include X Window...



Get me right here. I'd just as well have stepped in to oppose the Linux bashing that has been going on in this thread, but I don't measure myself intelectually with unarmed people. You, on the other hand, sound like someone who should know better, so I point out the fine print to you instead of applying rhetorical nukes against our I-hate-Linux friend.

Solar wrote:...and the "standard installation" for Linux could be said to not include X Window...



Get me right here. I'd just as well have stepped in to oppose the Linux bashing that has been going on in this thread, but I don't measure myself intelectually with unarmed people. You, on the other hand, sound like someone who should know better, so I point out the fine print to you instead of applying rhetorical nukes against our I-hate-Linux friend.

* JamesM feels ashamed

You're right *sigh*

(no sarcasm intended btw)

AJ wrote:@madeofstaples: This is why I didn't say more in my original response - absolute dead cert way of starting a flamewar. Tell you what - why don't we just all use the OSes we feel most comfortable with?

yeah, sorry, I really contributed to that I guess.. I was just amazed to see someone have so many misconceptions, like bash can't "autocomplete of previously typed commands. If I type "command 1 ahoi", then "blabbery" I should then be able to type "co", arrow up, and since "blabbery" doesn't match it should go to "command 1 ahoi". "

I do this in bash every single day with PAGE UP.

Ignoring mostly everything else written because it demonstrates a lack of understanding of the topic (like how file type determination is done at the shell layer, whether the shell decides to use the extension or the file's data is NOT a feature of the OS, Try programming a shell for Windows), I WOULD like to know if there is any GOOD implementation of virtual desktops in windows.

Every one I've tried seems to be an awful hack of window hiding/showing which ultimately ends up in one window being hidden and then lost by the program managing all this, so i cannot get to it even though the program is running. I've found a few DECENT ones, but they have stupid key bindings that I cannot change or get used to.

I just read through everyone else's replies and I would like to clarify one thing about the whole "Linux is just the kernel, GNU/Linux is the OS!!!" thing that seems to have stemmed from this:

Craze Frog wrote:

madeofstaples wrote:

Craze Frog wrote:Linux is the only desktop OS which doesn't have a GUI toolkit that is both...

"Linux" in itself, is not necessarily a desktop OS....

When I say Linux, I mean the distros, if I mean the kernel I will say so.

What I had meant was: his original text presupposes that linux aims to be a desktop OS while in fact this is obviously not true. It happens to be versatile enough to be used as both a server and a desktop OS. In other words, those in charge of the Linux kernel, are not responsible for his experiences with GUI toolkits which run in linux. Furthermore, if he didn't like a certain toolkit (or two), there are a few more to choose from. If distroX doesn't supply the one he wants, that's a complaint against distroX, not linux.

Put simply: the only way that this could be seen as a mark against linux is that he, himself, has to pick which software he wants on his machine to enjoy his computing experience. Boo hoo.

On the "GNU/Linux" thing though: I'm with solar: GNU is such a small, replaceable part of my system, that the suggestion that I credit it whenever referring to my OS is beyond silly.

Talking about linux distros and games well Ive tried heaps of distros as well as used solaris on a unix box, however my favourite distro for running games on cedega and everything else for that matter is gentoo. People shy away from it as you can build it in lots of parts effectively from the ground up but the docs are 2nd to none and in the end you have one stable system, Ive had gentoo running on a partition on a spare comp for over 1 year easily and it has never had any probs booting up. Before gentoo I heard linux was stable but with my first distro being redhat + finding tutorials that were wrong , I didnt find RH to be stable at all. I suppose it personal preferance I just love gentoo, yes because it has portage which is as close as you get in linux to win update arguably much better but also because compiling source doesnt seem to lead to dependancy hell even a fraction the amount its happened on other distros. Maybe its because I put every piece of software or nearly all from scratch? or im getting more of a geek , who knows but I like gentoo:-)

I did have cedega and its one great peace of software but I wish linux could immplement their own form of direct x lol , its just thats what it would need to do to really compete........but Im guesssing that would infringe on microsoft? On the other hand its monopolistic of MS to set a standard and not expect others to use? Im just taking principly thouh as I aint no legal expert and I realise this area is prob a minefield but It would be good if they could find a way to do this. Cedega is great but its far from perfect

actually madeofstaples , away back I would have took what you said to be a bit zealous but for me gentoo is leaps and bounds above other distros ive tried and thats on many fronts so I agree linux is distro dependant. Is windows better than linux? I aint even going there, but the fact microsoft has the money puts them in a dam good position. Me personally I feel linux and windows are good for differant things, learning comp architecture and arcane type computer coding linux wins hands down , but for graphics apps and useability well windows is arguably better

In short I dont know

I don't intend to participate in a flame war, or feed the troll, but I'd just like to point out that this is completely incorrect:

Craze Frog wrote:Sure, the problem is that supported hardware doesn't work. Including, but not limited to:
...rt2400-chipset
Standard USB keyboard

I am using both a standard USB keyboard and a rt2400 wireless card to post this reply. The wireless card worked perfectly out of the box - after I installed, I clicked on the network applet in the notification area, clicked my network, typed in my WPA password, and it connected... Now it automatically connects every time I log on...[/quote]