OSDev.org

but wouldn't you have to be able to code to use LFS? I know that it provides the software to use, but it seems to be a lot more complicated than just getting a distro

Cheers,

Calum

Calum wrote: but wouldn't you have to be able to code to use LFS? I know that it provides the software to use, but it seems to be a lot more complicated than just getting a distro

No, AFAIK, you don't need coding skills, just fast typing and some knowledge about the bash shell. IMHO it's not really hard to understand, just a lot of work (hmm - 'complicated' seems to be an expression for both), that's why I started using gentoo.

cheers Joe

I actually like Gentoo a lot (It's the 2nd best!), but find that LFS's hardware compatibility is better. You see, you don't need a network connection to install LFS, which is important to me, because my internet is on a Prism2 chipset WLAN device for USB supplied by Linksys. There's a Linux driver, but I can't compile and install it on a Gentoo CD. I can, however, install LFS from its own installation disk (they have that now) or (I think) install the WLAN driver on the LFS installer disk's kernel.

You might also install lfs, then install python and get the emerge/portage scripts - then you have installed gentoo

I would really like to try HURD (it seems to have the better architecture compared to linux) or even help to develop it (skills may not be sufficient).
There are also people trying to release a Gentoo/HURD.
That would be the optimal OS imo (provided that they have enough hardware drivers and so on and it would not be released "next year").

Hurd is meant to be a microkernel, although from what I've seen, it doesn't look like a particularly good one but we'll see.

AR wrote: Hurd is meant to be a microkernel, although from what I've seen, it doesn't look like a particularly good one but we'll see.

It's based on the GNU-Mach, which is, IMHO, already a bit 'outmoded'. The thing I don't like about it is that IO drivers are still mostly kept in kernel space, so it's actually a semi-microkernel, IMO (like - believe it or not - the Microsoft NT Kernel was at the beginning )

I was very interested in the HURD on L4 project, that was designed as a 'pure' microkernel. But it seems the project is dead now. :'(

I actually like Gentoo a lot (It's the 2nd best!), but find that LFS's hardware compatibility is better. You see, you don't need a network connection to install LFS, which is important to me, because my internet is on a Prism2 chipset WLAN device for USB supplied by Linksys. There's a Linux driver, but I can't compile and install it on a Gentoo CD.

Hmm - I use a Prism Duette WLAN card, and had no problems with building the drivers (before they were merged into the default kernel). What is actually the thing that's missing on the Gentoo boot CD?

Also, AFAIK, you can download the latest portage image and the source (or binary) packages in another system, and then use them from offline storage during installation, just like with LFS. (I use to keep all the source tarballs around, so I always have them at hand)

There are also people trying to release a Gentoo/HURD.
That would be the optimal OS imo (provided that they have enough hardware drivers and so on and it would not be released "next year").

Would be great, yes , but I fear that hardware support will take some time, unless they release an automatic Linux-to-GNUMach porting tool , or HURD becomes the de-facto standard.

cheers Joe

Crazed123 wrote:There's a Linux driver, but I can't compile and install it on a Gentoo CD.

Nota bene that you don't have to install Gentoo from a Gentoo CD. All you need is any Linux running on your host and the target drive mounted somewhere. This could include booting from a Knoppix CD or remote-mounting the target hard drive on the machine you're using to do the Gentoo installation.

Ever noticed how Knoppix doesn't have make installed in it?

Also, I live with people and can't co-opt one of their computers for 7-10 hours while I use its network connection to remotely install Gentoo, which STILL entails having a network connection on the target machine.

Crazed123 wrote: Ever noticed how Knoppix doesn't have make installed in it?

Depends on the Knoppix you use. Mine has. But it doesn't matter really, as you don't require make to be present on the host machine...

Also, I live with people and can't co-opt one of their computers for 7-10 hours while I use its network connection to remotely install Gentoo...

You should check out "screen" (allows you to disconnect / reconnect to a shell).

...which STILL entails having a network connection on the target machine.

Which can be provided by some other OS that does support the chipset out-of-the-box.

Come on. What's up with you?

Ummm.... I happen to LIKE LFS?!

Actually, if I had a given amount of extra time and really wanted to, I could install Gentoo, but it would also erase the collection of extra software I've built up using installwatch and nuke for package management. And without having to use portage, what is Gentoo but a patched kernel?

Crazed123 wrote: Ummm.... I happen to LIKE LFS?!

OK... but that actually takes much longer to install, and you need a working host Linux and the packages downloaded just as you need for Gentoo, so I don't really see how you could have gripes with Gentoo when your suggested alternative is LFS (which is basically the same without the comfy script-and-package environment of Portage)?

Actually, if I had a given amount of extra time and really wanted to, I could install Gentoo...

Extra time as opposed to installing LFS? You've got to be kidding...

...but it would also erase the collection of extra software I've built up using installwatch and nuke for package management.

Ah... I'm not familiar with installwatch and nuke, but aren't those basically tools for doing manually what Portage does automatically (in general) or supports doing manually (if need be) as well?

And without having to use portage, what is Gentoo but a patched kernel?

A notion I have seen in many people - switching to Gentoo, but using RPM's and DEB's and hand-written install scripts instead of available Portage ebuilds, then blaming the distro if things screw up.

Of course the idea of switching to Gentoo is to switch the package system. I don't know what your installwatch'ed / nuke'ed software packages are, but have you checked whether they might be available as Portage ebuilds (relieving you of the task of having to support your own package builds)?

That being said, my main reason for using Gentoo is the other half of that distro's benefits: The support community. I know that the LFS guys know their stuff and are willing to help, there are just so many more people using Gentoo that I have yet to come up with a problem that isn't solved in a flash on forum, IRC or Wiki.

Crazed123 wrote: Also, I live with people and can't co-opt one of their computers for 7-10 hours while I use its network connection to remotely install Gentoo, which STILL entails having a network connection on the target machine.

Hmm. No, not true. You can download the portage snapshot and the source/bin tarballs prior to installation, and then move them to the target machine on some other media. And, btw, even though live compilation at install time is one of the main reasons I use gentoo, it is _not_ mandatory. You can install software from binary packages too (not talking about rpm/deb/whatever). You can also build those binary packages on another machine, and then use them during installation. Be creative .

cheers Joe

Have either of you considered I might already run LFS, and have run it for about 2-3 years? 'Cause I have.

I damn well like LFS and am plenty Linux competent to manage the system fine.

And it is kind of fun going through Firefox Upgrade Hell.

Crazed123 wrote: Have either of you considered I might already run LFS, and have run it for about 2-3 years? 'Cause I have.

I d*mn well like LFS and am plenty Linux competent to manage the system fine.

And it is kind of fun going through Firefox Upgrade Hell.

Hey, no problem . I considered this as a discussion between a few linux power users, not like veterans doing trouble shooting with a n00b. If you manage to run LFS and really do all day work with it, you have proven to be linux competent anyway! And that's actually how I got started too (yes - with LFS).

So, sorry if you felt degraded , it was not my intention.

cheers Joe

Same with me. The question was "which is the best distro", not "should I switch". Being comfortable with what you have is about the best argument agains switching you could have.

Actually, after being really disappointed with SuSE, RedHat and Debian at that time, I attempted LFS first but became disenchanted when I found how much work it would be to set up, and how limited it would be (at that time) compared to "complete" distros.

That's why I was chilled when I found that there are source-based distros out there that allow a similar level of control (as opposed to "our distro works out of the box. It doesn't for you? Oopsie...") with a higher degree of automation and system support. Of these, Gentoo was (and is) the most mature.