OSDev.org

Sometimes people need to be impolite to get a point across. Besides, this is the internet; why should anyone care if they offend any poor soul who's never heard the word f_ck? (loving the forum censorship, by the way)

Seriously, there's enough political correctness bullsh_t in real life, don't bring it here.

There's a difference between being impolite and offending someone. In fact, they're independent.

why exactly must I go out of my way to tell a noobie to do some effing research the 'nice and motherly' way... when in reality, my intention was to tell him/her to do some effing research in a harsh yet meaningful way.

please doesn't cut it. When something needs to be done, a stern tone will most often accomplish the goal. on that note though, going overboard and asking harshly is NOT a good approach... it's about as productive as asking please.

I know very well that I cannot thrust my opinions on others . However i maintain my opinion . Mu ha ha ha

It took me a very long time to understand the nature of "Geeks" (this word chosen as there is some discussion regarding the correct term and I don't want to get in to a discussion about that) which on more occasions than I can count have resulted in me giving them... well, what they deserved. One who have the knowledge and experience, while being a member of a great community, often puts him/her self up on a pedestal thinking "I'm special, thus I can threat people as I want to." forgetting that it's real people with real feelings.

Fx. if I'm new to Linux and the community I might enter an IRC chat room with a question like "Why can't I play WoW on Linux?" which to you and me is a somewhat questionable question, but to a newbie who has finaly taken the step towards using Linux instad of windows or macosx, it is a very relevant and important question.

Now, there are severel likely responses to this question, none of which is usefull, like:

"<BLEEP!> WoW, it's a crappy game anyway."
(that is nothing, but an oppinion which is not shared by this specific newbie)

"RTFM"
(the newbie don't even know what this means and even if he/she does, it's not unlikely that he/she haven't got a clue on where to find the manual. If, in the end, he/she should succeed in finding the manual it's not unlikely that he/she doesn't understand the contents)

"Hey, I have better things to do with my time, so buck of!"
Nobody forced this person to respond at all and as it this specific chatter sit around chat rooms all day, doing nothing but harrasing newbies, it would seem that he does in fact not have better things to spend his time on.

And that was just some of the nice ones.
So what does one think when receiving such responses? Does it make one want to try again or does it make one give up?

I do understand that it's not the most rewarding task to sit day after day answering noob questions and I don't expect anyone to do that, but I do expect receiving the same respect that I grand others. However this is the very essence of the problem I think. Those who could help you, makes sure that you have to work very hard to learn whatever you need to learn. Of course you can't expect anyone to do things for you, but if you get no help at all the task is so incomprehensible that when you finally get skilled enough to help other, you don't. Of course it wouldn't be fair that anyone should reach their goal the easy way when you've had so much trouble getting there.


A homeless guy smelling of urine and alcohol comes up to you, begging for money. What do you do? The IRC/Geek response would be to kick him in the balls or something, however I doubt that anyone here would respond that way.

People you meet on the net are still people.

Fx. if I'm new to Linux and the community I might enter an IRC chat room with a question like "Why can't I play WoW on Linux?" which to you and me is a somewhat questionable question, but to a newbie who has finaly taken the step towards using Linux instad of windows or macosx, it is a very relevant and important question.

You'll notice that this forum is about operating system development, not getting started with linux (for example). A certain level of competence (regarding internet decorum, reading manuals, googling first, searching first) can safely be assumed. And if it can't be assumed, then I for one am not going to sit about answering stupid questions from people who fail to think for themselves. I will leave this forum if that happens.

As previously mentioned - the people who are the problem (and who get RTFM'd) are the people who don't put the effort in in the first place, and newbie or not, there's no excuse. I don't want to help those kind of people and I know I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

Then don't help. No matter how you put it, asking stupid questions is no excuse for treating people like <BLEEP!>.

I'm sure you know the phrase: "there is no such thing as stupid questions, only stupid answers" and I for one live by that. If you can't or won't give an answer then just refrain from replying at all. It's not that hard really.

Zacariaz wrote:Then don't help. No matter how you put it, asking stupid questions is no excuse for treating people like <BLEEP!>.

I'm sure you know the phrase: "there is no such thing as stupid questions, only stupid answers" and I for one live by that. If you can't or won't give an answer then just refrain from replying at all. It's not that hard really.

My opinion is exactly the same as the one in the "how to ask questions the smart way" essay. If you flood a forum or mailing list with pointless drivel made by people who can't be bothered to help themselves, then all the people who actually contribute will leave.

I therefore feel that active repulsion of such drivel is necessary.

RTFM is a valid, helpful, and educational answer in certain circumstances. The problem is, the deficiencies in character that made a "RTFM" necessary in the first place also mean that the subject in question won't get the clue, most likely.

That being said, I too dislike certain communities (*cough* Linux *cough*) for RTFM'ing too easily or often. There are differences between being lost / confused and being dense / ignorant. The former get a polite pointer to a FAQ or Wiki or somesuch, instead of being RTFM'ed, especially if they phrased their question politely.

I have actually read "how to ask questions the smart way", it was well written and it made me understand a lot of those weird and uncomfortable reply's I have received. In other word, it gave some insight into the mind of an uber geek/hacker/cracker/whatever. That being said, that was really all it did and I don't agree to half of it. I now know that people aren't necessarily being rude when replying with stuff like RTFM or similar, but while I might not react that way, I still consider it very rude when I get such a reply. The least one can do is to take the time to write "Read The Friendly Manual" instead, then it is also ensured that it is understood.

Zacariaz wrote:I have actually read "how to ask questions the smart way", it was well written and it made me understand a lot of those weird and uncomfortable reply's I have received. In other word, it gave some insight into the mind of an uber geek/hacker/cracker/whatever. That being said, that was really all it did and I don't agree to half of it. I now know that people aren't necessarily being rude when replying with stuff like RTFM or similar, but while I might not react that way, I still consider it very rude when I get such a reply. The least one can do is to take the time to write "Read The Friendly Manual" instead, then it is also ensured that it is understood.

It's meant to be rude. I've mentioned this before.

JamesM wrote:

Zacariaz wrote:I have actually read "how to ask questions the smart way", it was well written and it made me understand a lot of those weird and uncomfortable reply's I have received. In other word, it gave some insight into the mind of an uber geek/hacker/cracker/whatever. That being said, that was really all it did and I don't agree to half of it. I now know that people aren't necessarily being rude when replying with stuff like RTFM or similar, but while I might not react that way, I still consider it very rude when I get such a reply. The least one can do is to take the time to write "Read The Friendly Manual" instead, then it is also ensured that it is understood.

It's meant to be rude. I've mentioned this before.

Quote from how to ask questions the smart way wrote:Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not intended to give offense. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-bullshit communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems than making others feel warm and fuzzy.

This is what I'm talking about when I say I understand, but don't accept it. You can't expect a newbie to understand, I'd say not even after the person has read this essay, because it's just wrong.
There are loads of chat rooms and fora on the net with a big fat sticker on the say "GO HERE FOR HELP!" still the welcome leaves some to be desired.

I'm aware of course that I can't chance this, but I reserve the right to disagree and to fight it. I'm a friendly person, it's who I am and it will not change even if I should some day evolve into some kind of super geek.

Zacariaz wrote:There are loads of chat rooms and fora on the net with a big fat sticker on the say "GO HERE FOR HELP!" still the welcome leaves some to be desired.

And therein lies the problem. People just do NOT go there and cause annoyances elsewhere. Even here with the required reading in all caps on top, people refuse to read it, or are ignorant enough to not follow the guidelines. They are essentially breaking the rules and deserve to get kicked back in there.

If we feed them the answers it is like rewarding them for their bad behaviour, which only leads to more bad behaviour. It's like suggesting to let all criminals roam freely since we wouldn't be nice to them to lock them up.

I can understand that, but the problem is that those who behave and follow the rules still get treated like ****.

I have been a member of this forum, and Mega-Tokyo, for 2 to 3 years. In that time, I have never actually asked an implementation question on OSDev. EVERY SINGLE QUESTION I have ever had has been answered by either google or a forum search.

As for why people get treated badly, there are two broad reasons:
1) 'Older' members are arrogant.
But far, far more common:
2) Following the rules isn't just enough. If anybody has ever watched a movie called The Castle, they will know what I mean by 'the vibe'. If not, it's just you have to be a part of the community, give and take, not just take. You have to show that in the future, you will help other people. At least, that's my opinion.