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The problem here is, you have, more open minded people vs. more closed minded people. With science, you can choose to believe/disbelieve whatever you want, at least you have evidence and proof to make discussions. The problem with religion, it makes most people closed minded and blind sighted. I mean, for starters, I'm guessing 99% of people who have religious beliefs didn't choose their own religion, I'm sure it was imposed on you by your parents. It's pretty stupid to let some one else pick your own belief system, without you even challenging it, or making your own choice. But I guess all religions try to restrict you in this way.

Maybe Crazed123's parents should have sat down and said, "Son, there are many religions in the world. We are XYZs, but this is just the religion we have chosen, we will allow you to pick your own, if any" ...

I like the idea of having split classes, actually.
One science class for everyone to attend were only proven things are taught.
<self-righteousness>
One religion class were old stories are taught to the ones who want to believe them
One "scientism" class were interresting theories are taught to the ones who want to explore them.
</self-righteousness>

That would have rid me of the useless religion classes i've had to attend in the past, giving me time to learn interresting stuff.
Creationists would not be forced to write down and sign or be "indoctrinated" by things they do not believe in and could learn about their mythology instead.

On the other hand there is one problem with this: To make it just, one would have to give the opportunity to learn about every existent religion.
Because for example if i would attain any mythological/religious class at all i would preffer to learn about the native germanic religion of europe, and not that imported christianity-thing.

@sami tervo: *rofl*. my words. Just that I not just believe but have come to that conclusion after having given it quite a bunch of thinking threads for the subconscious to gnaw at. One gets the most sudden ideas and solutions/conclusions when doing that.

The thing is, your graduation is to prove that you have learned enough to function in our society in a given role that requires that graduation.

Not knowing the first thing about scientific theories because they are contrary to some religious belief leaves only one possible subject to study at the univeristy: Theology. No, wait, that actually includes learning about other religions, and discourse...

Oh, and one thing I remember from my lost post (emphasis is mine):

Or even just give the History of Life objecting students (where there are no alternate classes) extra homework or lab work that they can complete while not attending class for that unit. This extra work will make up for the lost grades, and nobody is taught any religion who doesn't want it.

Let me quote an earlier post:

You seem to be confusing science and religion. Science is SUPPOSED to be provable, whereas religion isn't.

If you once more twist your own words, once claiming that science and religion are two things, then lumping them together again however you see fit - I will call you names, grab your collar through the TCP/IP channel, and shake you violently until you either come to your senses or otherwise shut up.

Yes, I am angry. Not from your PoV, but by the way you present it - the typical, winging, evasive way of a religious fundamentalist who couldn't stick to a point even with superglue applied.

Sheesh.

>:(

*agree with Solar*

*agrees too*

I can't stand this religious fundamentalist BS either.

Hehe, make this thread sticky . It's always good for a laugh. (no, just kidding, rip it the hell out of the DB)

Well, all in all this shows again that religion is a thing that people should be careful talking about - or don't talk about it at all. Not in this world. Some people get crazy about it, some people get evasive, and some people simply explode when someone criticises them (I've seen that several times already, but not that often between young people...)

Can't understand however: Why some people, who claimed a page ago that the discussion is over, still keep posting? No offense, but is it neccessary to let oneself get angry just because of this ridiculous BS?

agreed to close the thread, btw.

cheers Joey

JoeKayzA wrote:
Some people get crazy about it, some people get evasive, and some people simply explode when someone criticises them (I've seen that several times already, but not that often between young people...)

Thanks for the compliment about "young people"...

Can't understand however: Why some people, who claimed a page ago that the discussion is over, still keep posting? No offense, but is it neccessary to let oneself get angry just because of this ridiculous BS?

Those with the most extreme POV's are usually the most vocal about it, while those with "everyday" views usually keep quiet. The problem with that approach is that the extreme POV's get so much unwithspoken "airtime" that they tend to reach their goal regardless of being a small but vocal minority. Has happened in the past (witch hunts, NSDAP), shouldn't happen again. That's why I have a hard time letting such POV's go unwithspoken.

I know it's a personality fault.

Solar wrote: The thing is, your graduation is to prove that you have learned enough to function in our society in a given role that requires that graduation.

Not knowing the first thing about scientific theories because they are contrary to some religious belief leaves only one possible subject to study at the univeristy: Theology. No, wait, that actually includes learning about other religions, and discourse...

Oh, and one thing I remember from my lost post (emphasis is mine):

Or even just give the History of Life objecting students (where there are no alternate classes) extra homework or lab work that they can complete while not attending class for that unit. This extra work will make up for the lost grades, and nobody is taught any religion who doesn't want it.

Let me quote an earlier post:

You seem to be confusing science and religion. Science is SUPPOSED to be provable, whereas religion isn't.

If you once more twist your own words, once claiming that science and religion are two things, then lumping them together again however you see fit - I will call you names, grab your collar through the TCP/IP channel, and shake you violently until you either come to your senses or otherwise shut up.

Yes, I am angry. Not from your PoV, but by the way you present it - the typical, winging, evasive way of a religious fundamentalist who couldn't stick to a point even with superglue applied.

Sheesh.

>:(

History of Life is a religion because it is unprovable. Hence why it's a mistake to teach it in science class, where things are supposed to be provable. A History of Life that comes to us from before humans started recording observations of the world and without a time machine is unprovable.

It was, in fact, an asteroid sent by the Great Spaghetti Monster that crashed into Earth and put fossils in the rocks against God's will, after which God finished creation. That sentence is a joke simply to prove that there are other explanations of how fossils got there than God and History of Life. Each of those explanations is as Infinitely Improbable as the next to somebody who doesn't accept the faith that posits it. You accept the History of Life explanation, and therefore believe it to be self-evident that the fossils prove History of Life, despite the fact that History of Life is derived entirely from fossil evidence and the beliefs that the fossil evidence supposedly proves. I believe God made the Earth, and it is just as unprovable because you have to believe in Genesis to believe that Genesis proves the 7 Days story correct, which in turn would prove Genesis. It's ALL faith.

And I would just like to note that in my last proposal EVERYONE gets taught the Theory(ies) of Evolution, and History of Life is the only thing that can be opted out of. That's it. The REAL SCIENCE is left in, the science-based religion becomes optional.

Whyme: Actually for several years my parents were Unitarian Universalists and I was the only Jew in the family. The only REFORM Jew in the family. My younger brother is Pagan (he celebrated the Fall Equinox a day or two ago), and the dog doesn't have a religion. If anyone's done any imposing it was me, I persuaded my mother to become Jewish again after we found a synagogue we liked. I DARE YOU to say I had my religion crammed down my throat. I even went to UU services sometimes (they are nice and tolerant people), but decided the whole thing wasn't for me as it seemed to be a religious front for the Democratic Party, and I'm a Green.

Solar, your thought processes make History of Life self-evident and my logic incredibly flawed. YOUR thought processes. Apparently in your little universe All Minds are Equal, but Some are More Equal. That is what you have to learn is that I am no more wrong or right than you simply for holding a different worldview that in turn creates different opinions.

If you'd like to turn this into a debate on the Freedom to Think Something Unprovable, we can.

Actually, I think the reason this thread hasn't been locked is probably because the moderators see a thread meant for DEBATE and they aren't going to come and declare EITHER side the victor by locking the thread.

beyond infinity wrote: @sami tervo: *rofl*. my words. Just that I not just believe but have come to that conclusion after having given it quite a bunch of thinking threads for the subconscious to gnaw at. One gets the most sudden ideas and solutions/conclusions when doing that.

;D - Allrighty..

Crazed123 wrote: I DARE YOU to say I had my religion crammed down my throat.

So your one of the elusive 1%...

Anyway, I wasn't suggesting religion was crammed down anyones throat, merely that, from my experience at least, people held religious beliefs not so much through educated choice, but purely by the fact their parents had raised them with them.

On the topic of evolution in the classroom, when I was at secondary school, a Church of England one, we were given the class exercise of making a poster showing stages of evolution. One girl protested, saying she didn't believe we evolved from monkeys, or some such comment. She was given the option to draw her beliefs of our origins instead. I never noticed any conflicts of interest in any science lesson at my old school, and I was with some pretty extreme Christians!

Ah, but that girl was allowed to draw a poster with her beliefs on it. In public schools nowadays they MAKE you learn the All-Life-Forms-Evolved-From-Single-Celled-Thingies-In-the-Primordial-Soup view. You'll fail the tests if you put down that God created the Earth. This is called intruding on the domain of religion, and the best solution (again) is to let religious types do extra work (possibly even in normal old evolution) to get out of the History of Life lessons and allow "This opposes my beliefs." as an answer to that section of the exams. I admit that current exams are a bit too "standardized for accountability" for that, but we're talking about the way things should be rather than what they are.

But but but ... I give a bloody damn for this bullshit, for any gods sake. you stubborn guy are about to cross the border of what is reasonable argueing and what is simply being stupid, stubborn and dumbminded!

No GODS ever have created any planets, lad. That's for the imagination of human beings - to give them fear and mystery about the old gosh a'mighty so they can rule them and deprive them of their ownings to grow fat and greedy priests oh thanks! *damnit*

Oh, and by the way - I have read somewhere in a paper, that they've found skeletons which hint at the possibility, that monkeys and humans might stem from one predecessor - but evolution paths have split, as one part of them searched for other realms of living, eh?

It's same with the neandertals. THey've split from the main branch as a sort of human beings able to endure the cold of the Eiszeit.

Oh, boy, I don't issue intimidations, but the day, the hour , the minute and the lad are to come where I lose my temper.

Ah - I have said that I won't take part in this discussion. I have lied. Bad luck for my reputation I reckon.

Thanks for your but so fine attention.

beyond infinity wrote: No GODS ever have created any planets, lad. That's for the imagination of human beings - to give them fear and mystery about the old gosh a'mighty so they can rule them and deprive them of their ownings to grow fat and greedy priests oh thanks! *damnit*

*Agrees with BI in this point, although in a slightly different tone*

beyond infinity wrote: It's same with the neandertals. THey've split from the main branch as a sort of human beings able to endure the cold of the Eiszeit.

Don't know if that's for purpose, but Eiszeit => ice age. Just willing to help .

cheers YouKnowWho

Thanks for translating. *gg* I 've used Eiszeit on purpose *rofl* Oh, and yes, I'm more than a bit pissed.