What Religion are you?

[Tyler]

Well.. Coke is a obvious method to decay teeth so dentist can make more money. A virus is obviously written by the anti-virus software industry. The electric cars are obviously being paid off in a attempt to keep the fossil fuel companies making a profit. A clock is a obvious invention by a company to get more production from workers?

I'll assume this is not sarcasm, and that you are just misguided. Especially as even the most Religious men you will ever meet in the study of Religious History will admit that the fear of God was used as a method of controlling the masses. They don't doubt that the God is real (despite the fact that for some reason he just wasn't around for the first few billion years of the Universe), but no one denies the Vaticans use of God to put fear into Christians, just as other Religious Churches control the members of their respective cults.

I was quite serious though... i will spend my every waking hour trying to disprove the obvious fiction that is God if you can disprove that the Lord of the Rings Trilogy did not take place exactly as written in the books in some distant planet millions of Galaxies away.

[Alboin]

the fact that the stories were written by men

Well. We already knew that? <Kevin looks around..>

To be a little more accurate:

2nd Tim. 3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[Tyler]

P.S.: He is going to be a little mad, but it was funny.

Why would i be mad? Only you and Alboin seem to be worked up about this. Clearly due to the gaping hole in anyone's claim that Fiction is reality. I am quite enjoying reading your comments infact, though not enough to have the fun discussions i have with the slightly more open minded priests i prefer to talk this through with. In the end, i have no wish to change your mind so i don't see any point being annoyed, that would be silly.

[Kevin McGuire]

We might need more mind control. With the emergence of this generation of rap music worshiper, sex fanatics, and (cut, scape, and hurt to get what I want) people. I imagine a little population control might curb that problem if they feared going to hell for eternity.

I am an advocate for more mind control (if it be what it is).

You might essentially be fighting for the unraveling of something that has a greater affect than you can comprehend. A large foundation of things sit right on top of that scripture.. *shrug*

Your like the guy who just keeps digging for truth when it sits right in front of his face. Then you got this big sump hole left from the battle that does no one any good. If you are mentally strong enough to know right from wrong then do it, and let the dead bury the dead.

[Alboin]

We might need more mind control. With the emergence of this generation of rap music worshiper, sex fanatics, and (cut, scape, and hurt to get what I want) people. I imagine a little population control might curb that problem if they feared going to hell for eternity.

I am an advocate for more mind control (if it be what it is).

I'm more one for freedom...Not mind control...Yet, I'm also not for absolute separation of church and state. They should be at least a little connected. It seems as if as the Church is farther removed society, society is getting worse. Just look at the US, for example.

[Tyler]

Now we are on the same Wave Length, i have long wondered the best method of increasing Moral Awareness. Is it to reintergrate the Church so that even if maybe incorrect, the Church forces Ethics upon the young, or to somehow teach people the need for Ethics without that.

Well from experience i know that most people really don't have the Intelligence to understand the need for serious Moral capacity without the forced nature of the Church. In this instances i sometimes wish there parents had forced the wrath of God down their throats.

Ironically i also hate Religions effects upon the law and think that it should be moved away and legal issues should be decided upon purely reasoned grounds and not what the Bible says is right or wrong.

EDIT: Also there is nothing wrong with good Hip Hop music... It is only the "Gangsta" oriented bullshit that pisses me off, and that no worse that the current trend of Cut yourself because your girlfriend dumped you and depressing to sell records music.

[Kevin McGuire]

We are not on the same wavelength. You unravel it by your self. I am not going to have any part in it since I believe there is a God.

I just looked at it from another perspective. Its a creative skill I have.

[Alboin]

Ironically i also hate Religions effects upon the law and think that it should be moved away and legal issues should be decided upon purely reasoned grounds and not what the Bible says is right or wrong.

Yeah, but if you discount the moral values of the Bible, what do you have left? .... <long pause>... Oh..wait...didn't they try that in the 40's back in Germany?

EDIT: Also there is nothing wrong with good Hip Hop music... It is only the "Gangsta" oriented bullshit that pisses me off, and that no worse that the current trend of Cut yourself because your girlfriend dumped you and depressing to sell records music.

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Tyler]

Yeah, but if you discount the moral values of the Bible, what do you have left? .... <long pause>... Oh..wait...didn't they try that in the 40's back in Germany?

Nope... i base my entire Moral being on things that help Humanity to improve itself. I honestly see nothing wrong with murder from any other perspective other that it does not help the human race. My only feud with religion is that the lies cause a degration of Intelligence within society. Just as my problems with Music for the sake of money is not only creating another generation of idiots but also further ruining yet another art form.

I beleive that all laws should be based upon the same logical discussion of how Humanity and One's own country can be improved, and not upon the believes of Churches and the weekly Moral of Amnesy International.

1940's Germany did not rid the idea of God, i really don't see where you got that idea from. Hitler may have been ruthless to his people but they never lost their understanding of their Ethics.

@Kevin... Sorry, my comment wasn't aimed at your sarcastic idiocies but the post directly above it from Alboin.

[Alboin]

1940's Germany did not rid the idea of God, i really don't see where you got that idea from. Hitler may have been ruthless to his people but they never lost their understanding of their Ethics.

Godless leaders is the point. When your government is Godless, they will lose their morals eventually. They'll become so warped that they're non existent. There is no direction. Nothing to adhere to. The law changes, but religion doesn't.

[Aali]

1940's Germany did not rid the idea of God, i really don't see where you got that idea from. Hitler may have been ruthless to his people but they never lost their understanding of their Ethics.

Godless leaders is the point. When your government is Godless, they will lose their morals eventually. They'll become so warped that they're non existent. There is no direction. Nothing to adhere to. The law changes, but religion doesn't.

yeah, that explains why crime has skyrocketed here in sweden over the past 50 years (1947 - 17% atheists and agnostics, 2005 - 85% atheists and agnostics)

OH wait, it has barely kept up with population growth, how very strange
we should be killing jews on the streets by now

[Colonel Kernel]

@Alboin:
I think you just invoked Godwin's Law.

There is an unspoken assumption in your arguments that I'd like to make explicit. You assume that morality depends on religion for its justification. That is to say, in your view there is no moral truth without God and that as a consequence religion is the way to spread moral values throughout a society. This is generally referred to as "The Divine Command Theory" of morality.

Tyler, on the other hand, sounds like a Rule Utilitarian -- the greatest good for the greatest number, but on a society-wide basis rather than a case-by-case basis. This is a very sensible outlook on morality IMO (just so you know where I'm coming from).

I'd like to present a little philosophical argument about The Divine Command Theory:

Does Morality depend for its justification on Religion?

What kinds of religious justification are available?

The "Divine Command Theory" of Morality:

'X is right because it is F (e.g. a case of promise-keeping)' =df. 'X is right because God commands us to keep our promises'

The "Priority Question": Suppose for the sake of argument that it is true that God commands us to keep our promises.

1. Does God command that we keep our promises because it is the right thing for us to do? Or....
2. Is promise-keeping right because God commands it?

A Dilemma for the Divine Command Theory:

If a), then there is a condition of rightness which is independent of and prior to God's commands, which guides his commands.....

in which case morality does not need a religious foundation in God's commands.

But.....
If b), then the fact that a kind of action is the object of God's command is what constitutes the rightness of that kind of action.....

in which case the content of morality is rationally arbitrary, because if b), then God could have commanded us to break our promises instead, and thus....

Morality does have a religious foundation but it is rationally arbitrary.

So which is it? A curious thought experiment is to pick apart part b) of this argument by broadening your definition of "God" until a) and b) become simultaneously impossible.

[Alboin]

@Alboin:
I think you just invoked Godwin's Law.

Would you have preferred me to say the Soviet Union, or communism in general? Both fit. I just thought I would avoid upsetting someone who was communist....(Wasn't there someone here who was? I forget.)

As for the Divine Command Theory, it's B. It's right, because God commanded us so. Take marriage, for example. God said a man and a woman. This is what I believe is correct, because God says so. If not for religion, it could be any combination, which is what is happening in the US as the state is further separated from Church.

[Zacariaz]

Really, what is the point of all this?
To me there is but one question: "Is there one or more gods or higher powers?"
Can it be prooved or disporoved? no. Thus i am not a believer nor disbeliever, i keep an open mind.

Then there is the question about the written words.
Those who believe that that the various religious literature are infact not written by regular human beings, i believe should think again.

I may not like the way certain religious groups use the written words and there religion as an excuse to invilve them selves in certain actions i dont approve of, but nothing i can do or say will change anything, so why bother? Why am i even writing this? Well, i have nothing better to do while waiting for someone to answer the (in my oppinion, more important) questions posed by me in various other threats.

I bid you a good day and pray that you someday will see the light and let this threat die.

[Colonel Kernel]

As for the Divine Command Theory, it's B. It's right, because God commanded us so.

The problem is, a lot of evil has been committed based on that justification. Consider the jihadists that destroyed the WTC on 9/11 and the ones that bombed the London underground. Or the murder of innocent people during the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades. People have been killing each other for centuries based on the justification that "God said we should do this, so it must be right!" I'm sure you believe they were wrong, but without rationality, how do you tell the difference? "My holy book is better than their holy book!" or "They're interpreting our holy book incorrectly!" can't be justified without some rational basis.

Giving up rationality for the sake of your beliefs is a terrible thing, IMO. As a species, we are unique (at least on this planet) because we are capable of being rational. If God made us that way, don't you think we should embrace it?

To put it another way, why can't it be true that God communicates right and wrong to us through our faculties of reason? Why does it have to be through a book that was written by fallible human beings and has been misinterpreted countless times?

I fear that Tyler's answer is actually correct:

Well from experience i know that most people really don't have the Intelligence to understand the need for serious Moral capacity without the forced nature of the Church.

In which case, the most "holy" cause I can think of is to make the human race as a whole more intelligent and rational so that we can avoid committing the same evils over and over again. In this view, your narrow-minded adherence to the Divine Command Theory is utterly counter-productive, and furthermore, denies the greatest gift given to us by our creator: Our grey matter.

From my point of view, none of this is about Religion vs. Atheism, or Religion vs. Science, or any such nonsense. All of the above can co-exist. This is about Rationality vs. Fanatacism, Zealotry, and Fundamentalism. Which side do you think God is on?