I was thinking today, and I thought: "Wow, we (The US) have a lot of people in prison." Then, I thought deeper.
What is the purpose of prison? "To remove people from society as to protect society." Who is in prison? "Bad people"
Now, does "Bad People" = "Dangerous people"? Cold blooded murderers, thieves, etc. should, obviously, go to prison, however, should people who had no intent to do whatever illegal act they did, go to prison? The chance of them doing it again, if it was unintended and an accident, seems to be slim. For another example, I don't see why people who commit tax fraud should ever see prison time. They stole money from the government, not their fellow citizen, and therefore they seem unlikely to causing damage to others. Another group to consider would be those arrested for drug possession.
In some cases it seems as though we are simply putting people in prison to appease the victims. Which, IMO, is a foolish idea considering that the victims are the most biased party in the entire affair.
The US has 2.2 million people in prison, the greatest number in the world, and our population is ranked 3rd by an incredible ~700 million.
Considering the sheer amount of tax money spent caring for prisoners, does this seem like insanity to anyone else?
Prison
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piranha
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I agree. Instead of prison for many offenses, there should be a fine or something.
But you need some punishment, or nobody would follow the law.
"I fought the law and the law won!"
(The Clash version is the best)
-JL
But you need some punishment, or nobody would follow the law.
"I fought the law and the law won!"
(The Clash version is the best)
-JL
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https://dbittman.github.io
Some objections here.
Prision is to keep people away from society until they have been re-socialized to a point where they can be returned into society. If it were otherwise, all prision terms would have to be permanent.
Tax fraud. The government is the people. If you steal from the government, either they can do less - to the detriment of everyone - or they raise the taxes, to the detriment of those who pay their taxes. As such, I think tax fraud is even worse than plain theft, especially since usually commited by the well-off, not those who are in dire need.
Fines meaning nothing to the rich - I would welcome a fine-punishment where the sum fined would be based on income / wealth, with proportionally higher fines for the well-off. Speeding on the highway with your Porsche 911, Mr. Movie Star? That would be USD 100,000, then...
Prision is to keep people away from society until they have been re-socialized to a point where they can be returned into society. If it were otherwise, all prision terms would have to be permanent.
Tax fraud. The government is the people. If you steal from the government, either they can do less - to the detriment of everyone - or they raise the taxes, to the detriment of those who pay their taxes. As such, I think tax fraud is even worse than plain theft, especially since usually commited by the well-off, not those who are in dire need.
Fines meaning nothing to the rich - I would welcome a fine-punishment where the sum fined would be based on income / wealth, with proportionally higher fines for the well-off. Speeding on the highway with your Porsche 911, Mr. Movie Star? That would be USD 100,000, then...
Every good solution is obvious once you've found it.
Absolutely agree with you in this point, and AFAIK this is already common practice in many countries. The real problem here is how to calculate the 'base'. In fact, quite a lot (if not most) of the really rich people don't have a regular income, well, and how do you determine the 'wealth' - maybe inspect the bank account(s)? Ok, then I'll have my bank account on the coconut islands. My castle and my cars belong to my wife, my company belongs to my grandmother and so on...you get the idea.Solar wrote:Fines meaning nothing to the rich - I would welcome a fine-punishment where the sum fined would be based on income / wealth, with proportionally higher fines for the well-off. Speeding on the highway with your Porsche 911, Mr. Movie Star? That would be USD 100,000, then...
The problem is that laws can't be persuaded just by common sense - they have to be formalized in hundreds of paragraphs to ensure equality to everyone, but unfortunately that's exactly what enables rich people to bend laws to their favor..
And what really bogs me is that I can't think of a better solution neither...
Yeah you're both right, if someone commits a crime, the punishment should definetly be worse because they are well off. Why should people get equal punishment for commiting equal crimes. That'd be like giving cold blooded murderers different sentences based upon the colour of their victims skin. Oh Yeah, America does that, so it is right 
You all are assuming that the rich go to prisons often. Usually if the defendant is rich, they usually have top lawyers that know every loophole in the book. For the most part though, if they DO end up getting a sentance or a fine, it is indeed an extremely large amount due to their class status. Think of people like OJ, he's getting the crap fined out of him, because he is rich. So, they already do fine by income (sort of).
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You're missing the point. The point is that punishments should be a deterrent. Yes, equal crimes should have different punishments if the net effect of that punishment on each person is the same.Tyler wrote:Yeah you're both right, if someone commits a crime, the punishment should definetly be worse because they are well off. Why should people get equal punishment for commiting equal crimes. That'd be like giving cold blooded murderers different sentences based upon the colour of their victims skin. Oh Yeah, America does that, so it is right
Consider a punishment where a man is put in a sun-tanning studio on full power for several hours. White, pasty men would consider this a punishment - they would come out blistered and red. Black men wouldn't - because of their skin they would hardly be affected at all. Same punishment, different effect.
A fine is not intended as punishment... at least in English law. It is intended as a minor reimbursement to the system. Punishment is being sent to prison. Just because a man happens to be rich, taking more money from them is nothing but stealing.JamesM wrote:You're missing the point. The point is that punishments should be a deterrent. Yes, equal crimes should have different punishments if the net effect of that punishment on each person is the same.Tyler wrote:Yeah you're both right, if someone commits a crime, the punishment should definetly be worse because they are well off. Why should people get equal punishment for commiting equal crimes. That'd be like giving cold blooded murderers different sentences based upon the colour of their victims skin. Oh Yeah, America does that, so it is right
Consider a punishment where a man is put in a sun-tanning studio on full power for several hours. White, pasty men would consider this a punishment - they would come out blistered and red. Black men wouldn't - because of their skin they would hardly be affected at all. Same punishment, different effect.
Also about your last point, that is the same for most forms of torture, which is illegal. Pick the one that most suits the person being tortured. Fortunately it is illegal and we have the Universal Prison form of punishment.
Not so in Germany. Many of the "intermediate" offenses (battery, for instance) are punishable by prision term or fine, which is up to the judge to define by circumstance.Tyler wrote:A fine is not intended as punishment... at least in English law. It is intended as a minor reimbursement to the system. Punishment is being sent to prison.
The system already is taking more money from the rich (tax progression). The reason why tax progression is not made even heftier than it already is, is because it would stiffle the economy - and I agree at that point. But when someone violates the law, I say the well-off should well give a not so minor reimbursement.Just because a man happens to be rich, taking more money from them is nothing but stealing.
Which is not equal at all. Have you read the boulevard press these days? How holywood stars have to serve prision terms (for drunk & disorderly, drug or traffic offences), but get released after a fraction of their term because of "bad health" or "unappropriate stress" or some such nonsense, or even get to spend their term under "house arrest" in an environment Joe J. Average could never afford to spend a week in for holidays? And none of them is going to lose their job because of their prision term, or even get into financial shortage due to their accumulated wealth. Heck, so they had a run-in with the police. Who cares? It makes the headlines, so the next movie / album will sell just that much better.Fortunately it is illegal and we have the Universal Prison form of punishment.
Joe J. Average won't be released because he tore a fingernail, he'll spend his full term, and not in the luxury suite either. He doesn't behave, he'll probably be isolated. He'd probably been fired by his boss even before he stepped into prision. Getting a new job with a prision term on file will be quite difficult, which raises questions with regards to the mortgage, retirement provisions, health insurance and other such everyday worries. The neighbours will shun him, his kids will be mobbed in school, ...
That's pointificating it a bit, but only just. Tell me again how prision term is equal for everyone.
Every good solution is obvious once you've found it.
This is apparently the case in Finland: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1759791.stm.Solar wrote:Fines meaning nothing to the rich - I would welcome a fine-punishment where the sum fined would be based on income / wealth, with proportionally higher fines for the well-off. Speeding on the highway with your Porsche 911, Mr. Movie Star? That would be USD 100,000, then...
@Solar: Because i can only comment on British Law (and i did say so). It's not my fault the American System allows "famous" people off. However here, such a disgrace would (very rarely) be allowed by our courts.
As for the fine system, from a non-legal point of view, i don't see it as a useful form of punishment either way. Given that it would require stealing huge amounts of money to make it fair to all people regardless of wealth, it doesn't make for a good punishment. Also, it seems slightly odd to me, the connection between crime and paying money, how exactly does one learn because the goverment takes money off them. I do agree that rich people should pay more, if it is a form of punishment, but for the very same reason, i could never support it as a form of punishment.
Prison sepeates a person's Unique situation while providing a punishment. Rich people are not punished purely for being rich, while serving the same punishment as poor people, it's a good system, though i would like to see capital punishment brought back for the cases who can't be helped, becasue a life in prison is simply a drain on tax payers money.
On the note of tax, they don't really steal, even with banded taxes, except in situations like we had not too long ago made all high earner's net income about the same as those in the band below, taxing usually spreads the taxes quite evenly without simply punishing you for making money.
As for the fine system, from a non-legal point of view, i don't see it as a useful form of punishment either way. Given that it would require stealing huge amounts of money to make it fair to all people regardless of wealth, it doesn't make for a good punishment. Also, it seems slightly odd to me, the connection between crime and paying money, how exactly does one learn because the goverment takes money off them. I do agree that rich people should pay more, if it is a form of punishment, but for the very same reason, i could never support it as a form of punishment.
Prison sepeates a person's Unique situation while providing a punishment. Rich people are not punished purely for being rich, while serving the same punishment as poor people, it's a good system, though i would like to see capital punishment brought back for the cases who can't be helped, becasue a life in prison is simply a drain on tax payers money.
On the note of tax, they don't really steal, even with banded taxes, except in situations like we had not too long ago made all high earner's net income about the same as those in the band below, taxing usually spreads the taxes quite evenly without simply punishing you for making money.
I don't thinks this has anything to do with law nor punishment.
One got to ask one self why people commit crimes and which kind of people we are talking about.
fx. mr. jones robs a bank and kills one of the employee while at it. At first it seems that its due to the fact that he is a bad person who doesnt care for anyone but him self, but maybe, just maybe he has lived a life in desperation, growing up being lucky not going to bed on an empty stumack (damn i can't spell) or maybe he has a son who is in desperate need of medical attention or maybe it is a combination of severel things. The point being that while it might be mr. Jones who commits the crime, it is not at all unlikely that it could have been prevented if someone had stepped in and helped where it was needed. But now mr. Jones is in jail, his son dies, his wife takes her own life... When he gets out of jail he has nothing to live for anymore. He may kill him self, or maybe he'll go rob another bank.
I my self am and has allways been very poor, i have a substansial amount of medical problems and my life has basicly been crap. (no im not after symphaty here, but im a pretty good example) I can't count the number og times i have thought about commiting some sort of crime to get money to make life easyer. I have never commited a crime (nothing serious at least, i think i once stole some gum when i was a little kid), not because im a better person or because i have moral issues, but because im afraid of getting cought. This is what life makes of you if things go badly enough.
Now things has gotten better for me and im on my way to a better life, but many people live their life a day at the time constantly trying to figure a way out and some day they simply realise that there aren't any.
As i see it, this is the problem in a nutshell, if this is solved we only have to deal with the rich and the insane. The insane can't help then selves and needs treatment and the rich... well, theres a problem.
Anyway, we might be able to helt mr. Jones, but then there is mrs. smith, mr. tucker, herr franklin an so on.
One got to ask one self why people commit crimes and which kind of people we are talking about.
fx. mr. jones robs a bank and kills one of the employee while at it. At first it seems that its due to the fact that he is a bad person who doesnt care for anyone but him self, but maybe, just maybe he has lived a life in desperation, growing up being lucky not going to bed on an empty stumack (damn i can't spell) or maybe he has a son who is in desperate need of medical attention or maybe it is a combination of severel things. The point being that while it might be mr. Jones who commits the crime, it is not at all unlikely that it could have been prevented if someone had stepped in and helped where it was needed. But now mr. Jones is in jail, his son dies, his wife takes her own life... When he gets out of jail he has nothing to live for anymore. He may kill him self, or maybe he'll go rob another bank.
I my self am and has allways been very poor, i have a substansial amount of medical problems and my life has basicly been crap. (no im not after symphaty here, but im a pretty good example) I can't count the number og times i have thought about commiting some sort of crime to get money to make life easyer. I have never commited a crime (nothing serious at least, i think i once stole some gum when i was a little kid), not because im a better person or because i have moral issues, but because im afraid of getting cought. This is what life makes of you if things go badly enough.
Now things has gotten better for me and im on my way to a better life, but many people live their life a day at the time constantly trying to figure a way out and some day they simply realise that there aren't any.
As i see it, this is the problem in a nutshell, if this is solved we only have to deal with the rich and the insane. The insane can't help then selves and needs treatment and the rich... well, theres a problem.
Anyway, we might be able to helt mr. Jones, but then there is mrs. smith, mr. tucker, herr franklin an so on.
This was supposed to be a cool signature...
Let's do away with personal identity and wealth; if we all are the same and think the same, nobody will commit crimes!
Now seriously, there's not really any other solution; seeing as the above is quite ridiculous (albeit interesting), I figure this is one of those unsolvable social problems, like Healthcare or What To Do With All Those Poor People.
I figure my goal in life it just to become rich enough to where I'm the one paying the fancy smart loophole-lawyers to make breaking the law legal for me, so I can do all those fun things like murder and tax fraud. Hopefully, things like prison won't be my problem.
Now seriously, there's not really any other solution; seeing as the above is quite ridiculous (albeit interesting), I figure this is one of those unsolvable social problems, like Healthcare or What To Do With All Those Poor People.
I figure my goal in life it just to become rich enough to where I'm the one paying the fancy smart loophole-lawyers to make breaking the law legal for me, so I can do all those fun things like murder and tax fraud. Hopefully, things like prison won't be my problem.
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AndrewAPrice
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...........ookaylollynoob wrote:.I figure my goal in life it just to become rich enough to where I'm the one paying the fancy smart loophole-lawyers to make breaking the law legal for me, so I can do all those fun things like murder and tax fraud. Hopefully, things like prison won't be my problem.
My OS is Perception.