OS dev Tree

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Toaster
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OS dev Tree

Post by Toaster »

Wonderful good morning [Pacific Time :wink: ],

I'm developing so far a new program called 'OS dev Tree'.
It is intended to display programming information of controllers and peripheral devices. These information are about how to programm the controller or the device, or a list of used resourcs (Ports, used IRQs, DMA Channels, Memory).

I have developed it the last few days am also developing on how to display the content etc., because it is an extensive work (all Text is handed in as external resource and loaded dynamically).

Have a look at the screenshots and download & test the Testversion:

http://www.viennacomputerproducts.com/u ... e%2012.png
http://www.viennacomputerproducts.com/u ... e%2013.png
http://www.viennacomputerproducts.com/u ... e%2014.png
http://www.viennacomputerproducts.com/u ... e%2015.png
http://www.viennacomputerproducts.com/u ... e%2016.png

http://www.viennacomputerproducts.com/d ... 20Tree.exe

You can get further information on the 'product' website:

http://www.viennacomputerproducts.com/i ... ion-system

I would like to hear feedback, what I could do better and how I can improve this documentation program,

Peter Kleissner
Last edited by Toaster on Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Combuster »

I'm seriously concerned with the fact that you think you can earn money with this. The documents in question are available off the web and posting a question here will help as well.
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Post by Toaster »

Combuster wrote:I'm seriously concerned with the fact that you think you can earn money with this.
I can try and will see if it finds appeal. The program wouldn't go to hobby os devers like all you people in the forum here, it would go to firms they are developing system software like boot managers, system utils (backup software) etc.

So do you have any feedback about the program itself?

Toaster
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Post by crazygray1 »

One thing were is the X button to close it not that you can't close it some other way,I just think most people would like that.
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Post by exkor »

Would be a lot more useful if you studied one device and wrote extensive docs/tutorial about it.

I guess you know little about documents you are collecting and presenting in different way, and dont know if info in the docs is correct because you probably never written a driver for these devs(sorry if thats not right). Therefore your program will be useless to me especially if I had to pay money. I have no problems finding docs online.

About the program: it looks to me that uses too much blank spaces between controls - wasting space. BUT if this is for corporate users then they all do such mess(from my point of view)so it's ok.
The layout look a bit busy to me.
Why don't you do an HTML page for each document and references at the bottom.
I would also do popup menus and would keep everything in one dialog - no external modal/modeless dialogs. Maybe split wnd in 2 halfs.

Well I saw few people in different forums tried to 'rewrite' docs, some didnt speak English so they wanted to translate docs. Don't know anybody who had success doing that.

edit: on the picture where motherboard drawn - parallel port may be missing completely, maybe nothing, maybe additional ports <- lost of variations.So you need to devise some kind of switch to change views or have layout of all motherboard of every manufacture .
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Post by Toaster »

well thank you for your review,

for the mainboard view it is just for illustrating, of course its not a "real" mainboard and there are lots of components missing
and the parallel port isn't missing, it's above PS/2 Keyboard and Mouse of the Mainboard view

don't forget the program is currently developed in its display way, how the information is represented, not the information itself

and for the criticism of documents, I have written over 80 docs about Operating System development, 3 books, OS development, Assembler and my newest one System development.
You can view my documents [on german] on www.osdever.net.tc

I dont know any person in the world who has written so fucking much about osdev so stop complaining; this program is something new I want to try before I go to commercial system development [it's part of an evolution process though]

my books [also written in german]

http://osdever.viennacomputerproducts.c ... opment.pdf
http://osdever.viennacomputerproducts.c ... embler.pdf
['System development' is only privately available]

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Post by JamesM »

If you're pitching this as a sales idea, I think you made a fatal design error:

It's a Windows PE executable file

Now I know a lot of people use windows, but the sort of people you're pitching at, in all honesty, don't. It's a fact. My company uses all linux boxen apart from the financial admin staff who can't be bothered to learn how to use it.
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Post by Toaster »

well I always just develop software for Windows operating systems, not for linux [I don't even have it installed]
and I think potential customers use Windows, and if not there is the option available to run it via wine
and if there would be a response of firms they would buy/use it when it would run on linux, I would change to development to CLX and compile it with Kylix

does your company develop system software (boot managers, such utils, etc.)?

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Post by JamesM »

and I think potential customers use Windows
Why do you think that?
does your company develop system software (boot managers, such utils, etc.)?
We develop dynamic binary translators, translating binaries between different source and target (a) architectures and (b) operating systems. We do this above-OS and below-OS. (http://www.transitive.com)
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Post by Toaster »

My potential customers are companies that are developing system software. I know, a lot of osdevers in the hobby/private sector are using linux, but I don't think my potential customers would.

There are just a handful firms they are developing real operating system software, I think less then 10 in the whole world. And these companies are not very big, they have just a few people working or developing on their software, so they do not have to calculate a lot of money for Windows licenses (which is a big cause why companies use Linux I think).
Windows is a great operating system, but it is not free, though.

These firms are professional, there isn't any cause why they should use Linux instead of Windows. With Windows they have more productivity and efficiency with Windows (more development & management tools, more support for applications, etc.)

Would the program was developed for private people then it wouldn't be a good job dealing with Windows executables, I know.
I'm currently thinking how I can improve the interface, does anybody have some suggestions?

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Post by JamesM »

Toaster wrote:My potential customers are companies that are developing system software. I know, a lot of osdevers in the hobby/private sector are using linux, but I don't think my potential customers would.

There are just a handful firms they are developing real operating system software, I think less then 10 in the whole world. And these companies are not very big, they have just a few people working or developing on their software, so they do not have to calculate a lot of money for Windows licenses (which is a big cause why companies use Linux I think).
Windows is a great operating system, but it is not free, though.

These firms are professional, there isn't any cause why they should use Linux instead of Windows. With Windows they have more productivity and efficiency with Windows (more development & management tools, more support for applications, etc.)

Would the program was developed for private people then it wouldn't be a good job dealing with Windows executables, I know.
I'm currently thinking how I can improve the interface, does anybody have some suggestions?

Toast'a
Hmm I see you're missing the point entirely. The choice between windows/linux isn't just " if(Can I afford windows?) getWindows(); else getLinux();" - If you're developing a UNIX-based solution (see later paragraph) then it seems logical to use a UNIX-based dev environment. Besides which the availability of low-level tools for windows is piss-poor at best due to the entire ethos of the OS - "Hide everything a stupid person user can break".

I also wonder at your target audience. What is your background? How much do you actually know about these components compared to the engineers in said companies?

A related point is: "Who develops mainstream operating systems for the X86 architecture?" Microsoft, linux, sun, Apple. That is unfortunately the whole list. I would assume the small companies you're looking at make embedded OSs for devices and as such would be working with the ARM architecture - which makes all your x86-based literature useless. Besides which you can find out everything you want about x86 via a simple google search - people have spent a lot of time getting these specs open-sourced - who would now pay for them?

So back to the kind of OSs these companies will be developing: How many will make OSs like windows? None. They can't. 'cos it's closed source! How many will follow a *nix design? 99+%. Why? Because then they can just use the free GNU tools/toolchain and have a working system in no time. So why develop on a windows system if you're developing a *nix product?

I refer you to my initial paragraph again, as it is very important. Companies don't use *nix boxen *just* for their price. They make a much better development platform for low-level development. Although windows fans will say windows can be used as such as well (and I won't deny this), I would put forward the informed opinion that *nix is much better at that particular job.

EDIT: Egads! I've just looked at your website! Please please take the ajax/javascript off the 'view full screenshot' functionality, although it works well it defies the logic of clicking a hyperlink. I don't want my window frozen for 6 seconds while something loads, especially with everything grayed out!
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Post by exkor »

Toaster wrote:
I dont know any person in the world who has written so fucking much about osdev so stop complaining; this program is something new I want to try before I go to commercial system development [it's part of an evolution process though]

Toaster
should have told your background and intentions - wouldn't be any misunderstanding. I dont click links in every person signature. And I said I was sorry if anything ... .

And I still think think that HTML page running in web brower would be good design.

Your company is only 2 years old. Is it popular in Germany? Will you be supplying DOS/protected mode programs with your program to prove that people can trust your docs? Why are you distributing your books for free? 1/3rd of the 1st book is incomplete Intel manual - useless to me. 2nd assembly books doesn't mean you understand devices. Are you sure that there are no better english books - people who do device programming will most likely know technical English.
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Post by Combuster »

if you consider the big OS developing companies, look at the OSes they make.

Apple does MacOS (posix)
Novell, Xandros etc etc do linux distros (posix)
Hewlett Packard does HP-UX (posix)
microsoft does windows (NT)

MS uses in-house tools, and will probably not consider you. The rest is all building (and therefore, using) a *nix or similar, so that would be your best bet.
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Post by neon »

It would be better to support both Windows and Linux, if possible. Why limit yourself to one OS?
How many will follow a *nix design? 99+%
I always wonder why this is... One of the reasons I am developing my OS is so that it can be different, and use the pros and fix the cons of both Windows and Linux. There isnt any point for me to develop an OS simular to an existing OS, else whats the point in developing it in the first place?

(Its okay to get ideas from the design, though. ...I am just curious here.)
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Post by JamesM »

neon wrote:It would be better to support both Windows and Linux, if possible. Why limit yourself to one OS?
How many will follow a *nix design? 99+%
I always wonder why this is... One of the reasons I am developing my OS is so that it can be different, and use the pros and fix the cons of both Windows and Linux. There isnt any point for me to develop an OS simular to an existing OS, else whats the point in developing it in the first place?

(Its okay to get ideas from the design, though. ...I am just curious here.)
Because it's tried and tested, and unlike you (a hobbyist) their aim is to make money and to do that they want an OS up and ready quickly. Having so many tools around conforming to an open standard is an easy, cost effective way of achieving that. Plus the unix architecture is good.

At the OP: Hmm, You may have written many books, but that doesn't impress me. As far as I can tell you seem to lack knowledge of what your customer-base requires and uses and are targeting a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

This is exemplified by the fact that you have decided to write a windows executable when static HTML pages or a subscriber only website would have suited your purpose much better, taken less time to build, and worked cross-platform.

I'm sorry to say but you strike me as the lecturer-type who knows all the theory but can't apply it to the real world...

Sorry if I've been too harsh.
My potential customers are companies that are developing system software. I know, a lot of osdevers in the hobby/private sector are using linux, but I don't think my potential customers would.
I'd also like to mention that my company is exactly the type of company you are describing. When we're translating sub-OS we need to simulate all aspects of every peripheral in each architecture. And we use linux for ALL our development. I really would be worried if alarm bells weren't ringing in your head right now.
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