Matrix...

[Neo]

Here's an old message I found when I was looking for stuff on the message boards:

http://www.osdev.org/board.jsp?message=3524

Do you think that the anything like the Matrix is or ever will be possible? (Why? and How?)

(Just thought I'd get this whole Matrix thing over with because it is starting TOMORROW (Nov 5th) and I can't wait to see what FINALLY happens (thanks to the crappy ending for the second one) )

[Heliocentric]

And so the one has returned, to start this discussion anew.....

[St8ic]

All I know is that I'd hate to be the guy who has to write the device driver for a human brain.

[TripleFault]

The Matrix simulates the whole universe which is, theoretically, impossible as a copy of the universe can't exist within itself because another copy would need to exist within the copy.  Theoretically, the universe is not infinite in size which it would need to be for the Matrix to exist.  My conclusion:  The Matrix could never exist.
I would really hate to be the guy who writes the driver for the human brain too.
~ TripleFault !)

[mikeleany]

A few problems: 1) You're basing your argument on a commonly rejected theory: "The universe is finite." 2) Even if the universe is finite, that doesn't mean that it's discrete. (Although, personally, I'm more likely to believe that it's discrete than finite.) 3) The matrix is not an exact copy of the universe, but only (as you said) a simulation of the universe. Remember, a simulation does NOT mean an exact copy of the real thing. And it wasn't even a simulation of the universe at the time period when it "existed", but a different time period.

[TripleFault]

You do have a good point there.  I was thinking slightly differently about what the matrix is (like it simulated every atom in the universe).  The "Big Bang" theory suggests that the universe is finite but it growing very rapidly.  I don't think we'll ever really know for sure.

[Anton]

Please define finite.

[TripleFault]

Main Entry: fi·nite
Pronunciation: 'fI-"nIt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English finit, from Latin finitus, past participle of finire
Date: 15th century
1 a : having definite or definable limits <finite number of possibilities> b : having a limited nature or existence <finite beings>
2 : completely determinable in theory or in fact by counting, measurement, or thought <the finite velocity of light>
3 a : less than an arbitrary positive integer and greater than the negative of that integer b : having a finite number of elements <a finite set>
4 : of, relating to, or being a verb or verb form that can function as a predicate or as the initial element of one and that is limited (as in tense, person, and number)
- finite noun
- fi·nite·ly adverb
- fi·nite·ness noun

BASICALLY, finite means that there can only be a cartain amount of something.  Infinite means that there is no limit.

Ex: Numbers extend on infinitely, there is an unlimited amount of numbers.
Ex: The amount of cereal in a cereal box is only so much.  You can run out of it.

[Xenos]

It is impossible to simulate the universe within the universe. <=> It is impossible to simulate a computer within a computer. Just think of bochs or vmware. And of course: they are finite.

The keyword is simplification. You don't need to simulate things outside our solar system in detail because nobody will ever go there (at least not in a reasonable time - remember, the Matrix simulates the end of the 20th century) and have a closer look. You don't even need the whole earth - you can simulate the interior with a simple model. The Earth Simulator, a giant computer in Japan, simulates the whole planet.

[Anton]

Ex: Numbers extend on infinitely, there is an unlimited amount of numbers.
Ex: The amount of cereal in a cereal box is only so much.  You can run out of it.

Exactly, so you can't just say the "univers is finite"-it does not make any sens, you need to say like: The number of atoms in the world is finit. Then the last statement is true. When you say :"univers is finite" it does not make any sens.
Anton.

[garf]

Whether or not the universe is finite or infinite depends on how you define the "universe". If you define the universe as "everything" then I think it both infinite and finite. I think there is a finite amount of matter and energy in the universe, but the space that contains it all is infinite.

Well back on topic a bit.

A device driver for the brain, hmm... software to control the brain, hmm... You could use existing comunication ports, like the senses of smell, sight, etc., hmm... sight would be a good one, the brain is very closely integrated to the optic nerves, all you need is the right inputs to gain a proper controlled response, hmm... Oh, wow!, I think TV commercials already fall into that catagory. The control of tha Matrix never ends...

Well gotta go buy something, see ya later.

[kataklinger]

Look at this book: http://www.wolframscience.com/toc/
"A new kind of science" - i read some parts of it, and it looks......see for yourself

[Xenos]

In fact, space could be finite, although it is endless, which is a major difference. Imagine an ant on a ball: It can walk around the ball without finding any border or reaching the "end of the ball", just walking on its surface. That means that the surface of the ball is endless. But of course it is finite, since the surface of a sphere with radius r is just 4 Pi r.

The same with the universe. If it is finite depends on how much matter it contains. (It is necessary to solve the Einstein equations to show that - but I don't want to go too deep into general relativity right now.) If the density of matter and energy is greater than the critical value, the space-time is just like the surface of a ball. If it is less, the space-time is a hyperboloid. At the critical value the space-time is a flat euclidian space. Measurements of the expansion speed of the universe after the big bang show that the energy density seems to be very close to the critical value.

[Xenos]

My power-sign seems to be "lost in space": The surface of a sphere is 4 Pi r*r.

[mikeleany]

Sorry to stay off topic, but I have a little pet peeve:
To say that the amount of matter or the space in the universe is finite or infinite based on scientific research at this point is ludicrous. We can speculate that there was some "Big Bang" and that the amount of matter from that "Big Bang" and the space that it covers is finite, but nobody has ever seen what may be 10 to the google power light millenia (is that big enough for you?) beyond that, or even the effects that something (or nothing) that far away might have. How could you say based on scientific research that there is or is not something there? (Unless you find that you either can't go beyond a certain point or that going beyond that point returns you to where you came from?) The idea that anyone could say right now that the universe is or is not finite (in matter or space) and claim to have a scientific backing for it is simply insanity. I hope that doesn't offend anyone, but it's true.