OSDev.org

Hi,

Unfortunately, Combuster has resigned as moderator of these forums.

I'd just like to thank Combuster for his many years of work as an OSDev.org moderator. I'm sure we'll all miss the good work he's done, and all hope he'll stay around as a regular member for many years to come.


Thanks,

Brendan

Really? That sucks. I liked his banhammer style. I was wondering why the posts I reported last night weren't locked . Have a great life, Combuster, and good luck in your OS project. You're welcome back anytime.

Without Combuster around, there'll be a severe proliferation of irritating questions...

We're screwed. I'm flabbergasted. There aren't enough words in the contemporary English language.

Seriously, Combuster was the primary source of ownage against noobs here. Meep. I'm going to need immunity from flame-related bans now.

Combuster: have fun with your life. Hope you still come around here often!

We're screwed.

It's nice to see you have faith in the other thirteen moderators...

pcmattman wrote:

We're screwed.

It's nice to see you have faith in the other six moderators...

Fixed. The others rarely hang out here anymore.

And I mean it always seemed (at least, to me) like Combuster did most of the noobpwning around here in a swift, elegant fashion.

The others rarely hang out here anymore.

Just because they don't post doesn't mean they aren't here. Have a look at the "Last Visited" time for some of them. I count 12 who have visited the forums since July, and 7 who are are seen regularly and whose work is actually observed.

If you're going to requote my posts with edits, please try and be at least slightly accurate.

The fact is that none of the other moderators have that heavy iron mace in hand when going about moderating. They're too lenient. I swear Brendan (not bashing you, by the way) tolerates the most noobish questions, and actually attempts to school the person and explain stuff to him/her. I saw about three new topics last night alone that Combuster would have locked without a second thought. Two of them were by the same person, and then this afternoon when I logged in, the same guy had posted another, not only noobish question, but one that wasn't actually a question at all.

It was like an indirect request for links to articles. Babysitting. I mean: with Combuster around, d'you really think there would have been three strikes? Tch. The guy would have been too jumpy to pass two.

The other moderators don't really moderate, so to speak, with the exception of JamesM, and JackScott. They tend to try to educate. From the rules of the forum, I believe the forums are meant to edify, and not to educate. There's a difference. Edifying is building on what you ALREADY know. Education...well, I think you see the contrast now.

EDIT: As a side note, why not nominate Solar as a mod? He's an upstanding citizen.

actually attempts to school the person and explain stuff to him/her

And you have a problem with this?

Why is it so hard to accept that we all had to start somewhere, we were all newbies, we all made mistakes, we all had no idea what we were doing when we started? It takes someone willing to stand up and teach you how to walk before you can start to run. The problem is when a newbie merely copies and pastes code in answers or tutorials without understanding what's going on.

On the other hand, there are posts which you can tell deserve a lock from the outset (clearly haven't researched, haven't even tried to look around, etc...) and for the most part Combuster isn't the only moderator who locks these threads.

I'm not trying to downplay Combuster's brilliant work as a moderator here. What I'm trying to say is that Combuster isn't the only moderator, and the world isn't going to end because Combuster leave the moderation team.

EDIT:

They tend to try to educate. From the rules of the forum, I believe the forums are meant to edify, and not to educate.

Edify means "enlighten", "make understand". Sounds an awful lot like education to me...

There's a difference between a newbie who's willing to learn, and who will take the time to understand what they're doing, and a newbie who just wants to get MyWindows 3.4 out as fast as possible (with as little effort as he can). Those who are willing to learn can become the next gurus if someone just invests a little time into them.

gravaera wrote:EDIT: As a side note, why not nominate Solar as a mod? He's an upstanding citizen.

I think I remember that he was once a moderator. So I guess he also resigned.

Anyways, I would like to say thanks to Combuster for his excellent work here as moderator, and I surely hope he will stay around here.

@pcmattman: I wasn't saying he is the only moderator here. I advise you to sharpen your reading skills. I wasn't downplaying the work of the other mods either: don't be so sensitive. It's not like I quoted you or anything.

Edify means "enlighten", "make understand". Sounds an awful lot like education to me...

You need to seek out a new dictionary.

It takes someone willing to stand up and teach you how to walk before you can start to run.

That's what the industry is for. So that when you, after all the years, eventually want to get into your own private project, you'd have the experience to do so. But you don't run up as a teen and expect people to understand your circumstances. You have to buck up and pick up the pace. Don't expect favouritism or special graces.

IIRC, worthy men used to fight it out with a machine in their basements back in the day: So no. I do NOT accept that there should be any sort of lenience to anyone who doesn't come prepared. And experience is not preparedness. Working 25 years in the software development department of some large company does not qualify you to work on an OS. If anything, that stunts them more. All they know is MSVC and Qt.

But I digress:

Those who are willing to learn can become the next gurus if someone just invests a little time into them.

You'll find that someone who doesn't want to read and improve himself isn't worth the schooling.

The problem is when a newbie merely copies and pastes code in answers or tutorials without understanding what's going on.

No, that is a symptom of the real problem. The PROBLEM is that he doesn't know what the hell he's doing. THEREFORE he copies and pastes, and the REASON for this behaviour is his ATTITUDE, which I'm not particularly interested in discussing right now.

However, I believe it's important to point out that if you come and read an article, say the Bare Bones articel, and find that you're WAAAY in over your head, and you've been compiling programs for 20+ years, and yet you can't seem to get $hit to work here, you should realize that you are not suited fort he endeavour. There are two choices from there: GET UP TO SCRATCH, or GET ON WITH LIFE. If this Bare Bones thing is supposedly the first step, and you can't even wipe your own nose with a bundle of towels practically given to you, then how do expect to handle it when you catch a cold?

About 35-40% of the newbie questions center around the compiling/linking/understanding of the first step. And 100% of those can be avoided by spending not more than two weeks of reading by yourself instead of irritating everybody. The next 12-20% of the newbie questions center around the simple console driver they have to write to get some text in the screen.

And the worst part is that they ALWAYS come and submit their code and ask for help with THE CODE. This is the most fundamental error we accept: helping with the code. Anyone who cannot taje the principle and apply it is simply NOT READY.

You're read a SIMPLE specification: it says: there are several devices that were used with original IBM PC for gfx, and they developed standards that all converged into VGa and its super- and sub-classes. For simple bootup, and displaying debgging messages, you only really need to scan for either a MDA or a CGA/VGA or later, since most PC nowadays have at least one, with the MDA thing being nothing more than a bend-over-backwards thing, really.

You are told: All you need to understand is that to write to the screen, you write characters, and attribute bytes in pairs, with the attribute byte being split in nibbles, L.O. Byte = FG colour, and H.O Byte = BG colour, starting at address 0xB8000 for VGA/CGa, and 0xB0000 for MDA. A generous article will supply the colours and the format of the attribute byte format. Although in a worst case scenario, a PROPERLY EQUIPPED person should be able to do it without understanding the attribute byte format by experimenting.

But they can't take this simple info and write a driver for it. When I wrote my console driver I thought it was TOO EASY. When I started this osdev idea, before I come to this forum, I though that just writing to the screen would require some kind of full-scale advanced driver.

The attitude is the most important thing.

pcmattman wrote:Those who are willing to learn can become the next gurus if someone just invests a little time into them.

I don't disagree with this statement, I just suggest that the one investing the time should be the newbie.

There are two types of newbies in this instance, OS Newbies and Programming Newbies. I've been writing code for 10 years, have a degree in CS, am employed as a programmer, and am still an OS newbie (but not a programming newbie). As a programmer, I know I should ask questions as a last resort, and frankly, I haven't done anything complicated enough that the wiki, a manual, or a tutorial couldn't answer.

Though I will admit that I wish I started OSdeving when I was still a teenager (or in first year), I had a lot more time to do things like this back then. At the moment, I'm thinking of not resuming work on an OS once the language is done. My company pays for education and if I'm going to be doing work on the side, I might as well get a Master's in CS.

That being said, thanks for your service Combuster, I always enjoyed reading your posts.

stephenj wrote:

pcmattman wrote:Those who are willing to learn can become the next gurus if someone just invests a little time into them.

I don't disagree with this statement, I just suggest that the one investing the time should be the newbie.

That being said, there are two types of newbies in this instance, OS Newbies and Programming Newbies. I've been writing code for 10 years, have a degree in CS, am employed as a programmer, and am still an OS newbie (but not a programming newbie). As a programmer, I know I should ask questions as a last resort, and frankly, I haven't done anything complicated enough that the wiki, a manual, or a tutorial couldn't answer.

Though I will admit that I wish I started OSdeving when I was still a teenager (or in first year), I had a lot more time to do things like this back then. At the moment, I'm thinking of not resuming work on an OS once the language is done. My company pays for education and if I'm going to be doing work on the side, I might as well get a Master's in CS.

That being said, thanks for your service Combuster, I always enjoyed reading your posts.

Thank you, stephenj. You just came and stated everything I just said from the POV of someone who really does come from that side of the fence. Beautiful. YOU should take the responsibility of making sure YOU'RE prepared. We don't OWE ANYBODY an explanation. Get up to mark. That's what I was saying.

gravaera wrote:Working 25 years in the software development department of some large company does not qualify you to work on an OS. If anything, that stunts them more. All they know is MSVC and Qt.

Why do I get the feeling you're going to be pissed off at some smart mouthed kid 25 years from now?

EDIT: Or right now for that matter.

gravaera wrote:@pcmattman: I wasn't saying he is the only moderator here. I advise you to sharpen your reading skills. I wasn't downplaying the work of the other mods either: don't be so sensitive. It's not like I quoted you or anything.

Firstly, I never said you were downplaying the work of the moderators. I also wasn't directing my comment at only you. And if you read my comment about Combuster being the only one here in the context that I intended it to be read, along with the second part of the sentence (which you conveniently ignored), you might make more sense of what I'm saying.

Edify means "enlighten", "make understand". Sounds an awful lot like education to me...

You need to seek out a new dictionary.

Perhaps..

It takes someone willing to stand up and teach you how to walk before you can start to run.

That's what the industry is for. So that when you, after all the years, eventually want to get into your own private project, you'd have the experience to do so. But you don't run up as a teen and expect people to understand your circumstances. You have to buck up and pick up the pace. Don't expect favouritism or special graces.

Uh, what? There's no "favouritism" or "special graces". I want an environment and culture where newbies are actually given a chance. Where you aren't discriminating based on age, gender, or race.

IIRC, worthy men used to fight it out with a machine in their basements back in the day: So no. I do NOT accept that there should be any sort of lenience to anyone who doesn't come prepared. And experience is not preparedness. Working 25 years in the software development department of some large company does not qualify you to work on an OS. If anything, that stunts them more. All they know is MSVC and Qt.

So you contradict yourself? You just said "that's what the industry is for", and now you're saying working in the industry stunts them?

But I digress:

Those who are willing to learn can become the next gurus if someone just invests a little time into them.

You'll find that someone who doesn't want to read and improve himself isn't worth the schooling.

That's a blanket accusation of all newbies to this forum.

The problem is when a newbie merely copies and pastes code in answers or tutorials without understanding what's going on.

No, that is a symptom of the real problem. The PROBLEM is that he doesn't know what the hell he's doing. THEREFORE he copies and pastes, and the REASON for this behaviour is his ATTITUDE, which I'm not particularly interested in discussing right now.

An attitude is changeable, and often the best thing to do is sometimes to teach someone to learn.

About 35-40% of the newbie questions center around the compiling/linking/understanding of the first step. And 100% of those can be avoided by spending not more than two weeks of reading by yourself instead of irritating everybody. The next 12-20% of the newbie questions center around the simple console driver they have to write to get some text in the screen.

Right, so 35-40% of people are probably not cut out to do this kind of thing and need to go and write some applications. That leaves 60% who still have valid questions. And just because a console driver seems simple to you now after you've done it for the nth time, doesn't mean it's simple to someone who's just entering into the realm.

And the worst part is that they ALWAYS come and submit their code and ask for help with THE CODE. This is the most fundamental error we accept: helping with the code. Anyone who cannot taje the principle and apply it is simply NOT READY.

I don't know about you, but I find it harder to help someone without seeing some code. If they're just posting code and asking what's wrong with it, tell them they need to do some debugging first. Educate them.

But they can't take this simple info and write a driver for it. When I wrote my console driver I thought it was TOO EASY. When I started this osdev idea, before I come to this forum, I though that just writing to the screen would require some kind of full-scale advanced driver.

Congratulations. You must be a genius.

The attitude is the most important thing.

Attitudes can be changed. If you want osdev.org to be an elitist den, you're going about it the right way. I thought osdev.org was "The place to start for OS Developers." Maybe I was wrong?

Geez it almost sounds like a funeral here guys, I'm sure Combuster will still chime in from time to time. I could see the job of moderator wearing on anyone after a while, my thanks go out to him for putting in the extra effort. I'm sure the other mods will be able to keep the order even if they're a bit more covert about it.

@gravaera: I think you're oversimplifying things a bit to fit your own preconceptions about 'the way things are'. In general I wouldn't knock wisdom and knowing when you need some help, even if it's starting out. Don't view this forum as some exclusive club representing the elite of the elite in the programming community, it simply is not meant to function as a country club for programmers.