OSDev.org

Although I realize this is probably not going to be implemented, I'd like the 'OS Development' forum to be split in at least two forums: 'Hardware' and 'OS development'. Stuff about VGA, NICs, ATAPI etc. can go in former, while stuff about memory management, multi threading, OS APIs etc. can go in the latter. Would you like such a division, or do you think this is too much?


JAL

The main problem is where to draw the 'hardware' line, as you'd be doing hardware accesses all over (CPU and memory's hardware too by any accepted definition).

The obvious other question we'd like to see an answer to is why the forum needs the split in the first place.

Yeah, I think if we had a "hardware" forum it would take 98% of the posts with it.

I still say we should have an "archived badness" forum with locked posted from the past...

Combuster wrote:The main problem is where to draw the 'hardware' line, as you'd be doing hardware accesses all over (CPU and memory's hardware too by any accepted definition).

I realize that it may be difficult to draw a line, but that goes for all splitting up: the boundary between the two current forums (development vs. design) is also not clear cut.

The obvious other question we'd like to see an answer to is why the forum needs the split in the first place.

The same reason why all the other forums are split: lumping stuff together creates a mess. I like categorizing stuff, so having things like 'which VGA register to use' vs. 'Bran's tutorial doesn't compile' side-by-side just looks so untidy. And yes, as said, I know this proposal doesn't make a chance (how to translate 'geen schijn van kans', mmm...), but I'd just like y'all's opinions.


JAL

Troy Martin wrote:Yeah, I think if we had a "hardware" forum it would take 98% of the posts with it.

Well, I'd exclude CPU and memory from 'hardware', as they are not devices as such, and also general posts like 'I don't see a thing on the screen is my GDT broken' should not go there. Looking at the first bunch of current posts:

- write to 0xb8000 doesn't work -> development
- FYI: Windows Research -> development (if at all)
- advice on OS language -> development
- where to get floppy disk image -> development
- heap bug in tut -> development
- video BIOS in Virtual PC -> hardware
- how to get harddisk mode -> hardware
- booting from USB -> hardware
- boot device detection -> hardware
- optimisation problems -> development
- paging and cache control -> development
- gcc cross compiler -> development
- UTF-8 implementation -> development

That's 13 posts, of which 9 dev and 4 hw. so that's not 98% but 31%.


JAL

For what it's worth I agree with jal. It'd be nice to have software problems separate from hardware problems - it means if I know nothing about the floppy disk hardware but a lot about stack switching I can sort out the posts I can't help with.

My 2c.

Well, I think we have houndreds of topics on the same argument. It would be nice (and probably would reduce new topic on an already solved problem) if it is divided like this:
* Bootloader problems
* Paging problems
* Multitasking problems
* GDT/IDT problems
* etc etc

That's a lot of forums/subforums.

We could do a tree like this:

And to think people have trouble using the right forum already...

The OS Development is flooded with newbies asking "Why does my kernel triple boot?", aswell as a lot of BIFF's not reading the Wiki (let alone the what not to post article). The result is that the more advance questions end up going into OS Design & Theory.

I think the OS Design & Theory should be more strictly enforced to keep out topics focused on implementation or people asking for help. Something that I would consider appropriate would be presenting an idea that could be used by others in their operating systems, allowing for feedback and a discussion. What I would consider innapproriate for this forum is people asking for help on how to implement something.

An example of an innappropriate question is "How do I add a VFS to my OS?" (that should go under OS Development). A more appropriate topic would be a proposal for a new method of handling file systems, or discussing the pros and cons of currently implementations of VFS's (in an overall context, which is different to "What should I support in my OS?").

I would consider the following topics innapproriate for the OS Design & Theory forum (all of which appeared on the first page of the forum as of posting):
- Easiest non-x86 architecture
- Changing VESA resolution in Long/Pmode
- GNU/Darwin programming
- A Revolutionary Networking OS
- Valix: An OS, a Plan
- About Mac OS design...
- managing linked, cow, and shared tables
- porting SSCLI and OpenJDK
- porting x11 to a managed os
- Bootloader Implementation

As such, I am recommending that we add a sub forum to OS Development called "Getting Started" (or another forum along side of it). Next time someone is just starting out and asks one a beginner question ("I want to start an OS." "Why doesn't my bootloader load?" "How do I set up my compiler?" "What is an IDT?") we move it to the Getting Started forum, and try to enforce it there.

The reason being that I rarely read the OS Development forum anymore (though I occasionally skim through the subject lines). I'm also hesitant to ask questions there for the same reason being that the people who are more experienced at answering my question would also do the same. I think a lot of people feel the same way, which is why we're getting implementation questions in OS Design & Theory.

@MessiahAndrw: I totally agree.

As far as I can see, the problem is that the OS Development and OS Design/Theory forums are no longer really what they are supposed to be, but instead OS Development is for beginner questions and OS Design/Theory is for advanced questions. It could have something to do with the nature of the forum descriptions - the first thing I would focus on as a newbie on the OS Development description is:

Question about which tools to use, bugs, the best way to implement a function, etc should go here. Don't forget to see if your question is answered in the wiki first! When in doubt post here.

And the first thing I would focus on on the OS Design/Theory description is:

Discussions on more advanced topics such as monolithic vs micro-kernels, transactional memory models, and paging vs segmentation should go here. Use this forum to expand and improve the wiki!

See the problem?

Also, if there is to be a Getting Started forum, maybe there should be a bot that looks for certain key words/phrases in a new thread that indicate the poster didn't look at the Getting Started page of the wiki, and posts a link to it there.

MessiahAndrw wrote: - Changing VESA resolution in Long/Pmode
- A Revolutionary Networking OS

Well...ouch...

As such, I am recommending that we add a sub forum to OS Development called "Getting Started" (or another forum along side of it). Next time someone is just starting out and asks one a beginner question ("I want to start an OS." "Why doesn't my bootloader load?" "How do I set up my compiler?" "What is an IDT?") we move it to the Getting Started forum, and try to enforce it there.

The reason being that I rarely read the OS Development forum anymore (though I occasionally skim through the subject lines). I'm also hesitant to ask questions there for the same reason being that the people who are more experienced at answering my question would also do the same. I think a lot of people feel the same way, which is why we're getting implementation questions in OS Design & Theory.

I was going to post the exact same idea, so since you've taken the words out of my mouth, I'll just QFT and leave it at that.

MessiahAndrw wrote:As such, I am recommending that we add a sub forum to OS Development called "Getting Started" (or another forum along side of it). Next time someone is just starting out and asks one a beginner question ("I want to start an OS." "Why doesn't my bootloader load?" "How do I set up my compiler?" "What is an IDT?") we move it to the Getting Started forum, and try to enforce it there.

Wait, don't we usually try to stop people from posting threads like that? Most don't last much longer than 24 hours with 3 or 4 replies followed by a lock and a handful of wiki/google links.

NickJohnson wrote:Also, if there is to be a Getting Started forum, maybe there should be a bot that looks for certain key words/phrases in a new thread that indicate the poster didn't look at the Getting Started page of the wiki, and posts a link to it there.

I remember vBulletin having this as a feature. By default, it would search for threads of similar topic names (and, if you wanted, similar body content) and alert you if it found anything. Perhaps there's a phpBB3 mod for this? That would be cool.

Troy Martin wrote:Wait, don't we usually try to stop people from posting threads like that? Most don't last much longer than 24 hours with 3 or 4 replies followed by a lock and a handful of wiki/google links.

Yes but it is nearly every day. I would guess that in a week there are about 10 new topics followed by about 3-4 replies from people which have no business on this forum. It is really annoying and a waste of time. I visit to share and participate in OS related topics by competent and serious developers. It's nothing short of frustrating when 50% of the posts don't belong here. Maybe 50% is a bit high but there are plenty of posts on this forum by illiterates who have absolutely no business whatsoever being involved in any OS development, design or theory. The responses are normally the same (RTFM, RTFW, etc) its very repetitive and gets old. IMO there is a disconnect somewhere. Perhaps because the site is so well maintained, active, organized, etc, it attracts the illiterates like flies to feces.

Yes but it is nearly every day. I would guess that in a week there are about 10 new topics followed by about 3-4 replies from people which have no business on this forum. It is really annoying and a waste of time. I visit to share and participate in OS related topics by competent and serious developers. It's nothing short of frustrating when 50% of the posts don't belong here. Maybe 50% is a bit high but there are plenty of posts on this forum by illiterates who have absolutely no business whatsoever being involved in any OS development, design or theory. The responses are normally the same (RTFM, RTFW, etc) its very repetitive and gets old. IMO there is a disconnect somewhere. Perhaps because the site is so well maintained, active, organized, etc, it attracts the illiterates like flies to feces.

<rant>

Well, I don't see *any* live feedback from your side. There exists this very nice "report post" button. If you use that instead of creating more spam by posting a hundred-and-one noise posts (which includes all references to forum rules), stacked on top of one another. Many of you are about as much as a nuisance (and hypocrite) as the idiot that arrives every other day and gets kicked the next when I see you blowing up threads over nothing.
And yes, that applies to half the people who posted in this thread. And if you feel offended it especially applies to you.

Keyword: IGNORE, please. Let us deal with the 50% that deserves the banhammer instead of you all fanning the flames.
</rant>