Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by Brendan »

Hi,
onlyonemac wrote:
Brendan wrote:
onlyonemac wrote:Now let's suppose that your OS actually becomes popular enough that the IT department decides to switch, and now they've got an office full of "broken" monitors just because you left out the few lines of code it would take to provide the option for the IT department to override the OS's automatic detection of the monitor resolution.
It's not a few lines of code; it's punching a hole through the OSs permission system to allow a user to diddle with the OS's configuration that they should never be allowed to touch, combined with some sort of "monitor preferences" dialog box in each GUI; all for the sake of faulty hardware that should never have been sold, won't exist by the time my OS is actually released, and won't make a significant difference even if it does still exist.
I never said anything about dialog boxes; just something simple like a bootloader option like Linux uses these days. Don't tell me you have no provision for bootloader options.
There's a file (I call it the "boot script" but it's not a script and is just lines of "variable = value") that contains options that can't be accessed by normal users. This mostly only exists for my use (e.g. for forcing the OS to do something it normally shouldn't, so I can test something I normally wouldn't be able to) and will probably be removed (or at least hidden) before the OS is ever released.


Cheers,

Brendan
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by Combuster »

Brendan wrote:The chance of a company buying TVs and not monitors is zero.
:^o

And yes, they're connected to computers.
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by onlyonemac »

Brendan wrote:There's a file (I call it the "boot script" but it's not a script and is just lines of "variable = value") that contains options that can't be accessed by normal users. This mostly only exists for my use (e.g. for forcing the OS to do something it normally shouldn't, so I can test something I normally wouldn't be able to) and will probably be removed (or at least hidden) before the OS is ever released.
Removing a useful troubleshooting/workaround tool such as your "boot script" seems like the dumbest thing an OSdevver could do, especially when you've already implemented that functionality.
When you start writing an OS you do the minimum possible to get the x86 processor in a usable state, then you try to get as far away from it as possible.

Syntax checkup:
Wrong: OS's, IRQ's, zero'ing
Right: OSes, IRQs, zeroing
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by Brendan »

Hi,
onlyonemac wrote:
Brendan wrote:There's a file (I call it the "boot script" but it's not a script and is just lines of "variable = value") that contains options that can't be accessed by normal users. This mostly only exists for my use (e.g. for forcing the OS to do something it normally shouldn't, so I can test something I normally wouldn't be able to) and will probably be removed (or at least hidden) before the OS is ever released.
Removing a useful troubleshooting/workaround tool such as your "boot script" seems like the dumbest thing an OSdevver could do, especially when you've already implemented that functionality.
Yes; and also no.

In order of smartest to dumbest, it goes like this:
  • A) An OS that doesn't need troubleshooting/workarounds, and therefore has none
  • B) An OS that doesn't need troubleshooting/workarounds, but has unnecessary bloat and unnecessary documentation for troubleshooting/workarounds that are simply not needed
  • C) An OS that does need troubleshooting/workarounds, and has necessary bloat and necessary documentation for troubleshooting/workarounds that are needed
  • D) An OS that does need troubleshooting/workarounds, but has none.
Going from "C) Needing and having" down to "D) Needing but not having" would be very silly.

I'm currently stuck at "C) Needing and having", partly because I need to get networking implemented before I can discard/forget about KVMs, and partly because I'll want to use it in future for some things - e.g. to force the OS to choose a 32-bit kernel when booted on 64-bit hardware (and not a more sensible 64-bit kernel), so I can test the 32-bit kernel on more machines. Eventually (once the things I need are implemented) I'll end up at "B) Not needing, but having anyway", and from there it's smarter to remove it (or hide/disable it) and arrive at "A) Not needing and not having".

As an interesting exercise (I have done this myself in the past) for people who want to be OS designers; I'd recommend examining each of the Linux kernel parameters one at a time and trying to think of ways to make each one unnecessary for end users (not necessarily kernel developers).


Cheers,

Brendan
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by Griwes »

Brendan wrote:Hi,
Griwes wrote:
Brendan wrote:Companies that are that bad tend to go bankrupt before it matters.
I really, really wish this had anything to do with reality, but the point is - it doesn't! That's exactly how the majority of corporations operate in this world. So, unless you can change how morons think, there's nothing you can do to fix this particular issue.

I'd name a few corporations that I know, first-hand, to operate in this exact way (for example, one that sells a very specialized piece of hardware with some very specialized software installed on it, that cannot "afford" to have more than ~20 testlines - because it has to buy it - for a critical component of the end product that maintains about 3 active and 2 maintenance branches, which is a total joke; the corporation in question recently celebrated its 150 years of operation...), but I don't think naming them actually achieves anything (maybe except getting them some bad press, but that's not my goal here, no matter how much they deserve it).
Without any clue whether the piece of equipment they "can't afford" is a 20 million dollar piece of industrial mining machinery or a $20 ARM board, I'm not sure what (if anything) your comment means.

For the majority of businesses I've dealt with...

For small to medium business, the conversation would go roughly like this:
  • Dude: I need a new monitor.
    Boss: Why?
    Dude: The old one is crap, but you don't have to take my word for it - the OS itself says its crap too
    Boss: Oh, OK. Get some $ from petty cash and bring the receipt back.
And for larger business the conversation would go roughly like this:
  • Head admin: I need a new monitor.
    Boss: Why are you wasting my time? You've got a budget that covers maintenance and replacement. Get 3 monitors so there's spares and don't ask me about trivial crap ever again.

Cheers,

Brendan
I take it you have never actually worked at a corporation, and definitely not at one that outsources its IT services and supplies to other companies; therefore, the rest of this discussion is useless, because you don't have a clue about the problems I am talking about. (Also: the budget for maintenance and replacement rarely has any actual funds for "nonsense" like this.)
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by Brendan »

Hi,
Griwes wrote:I take it you have never actually worked at a corporation, and definitely not at one that outsources its IT services and supplies to other companies; therefore, the rest of this discussion is useless, because you don't have a clue about the problems I am talking about. (Also: the budget for maintenance and replacement rarely has any actual funds for "nonsense" like this.)
I've dealt with enough companies (as an employee, as a contractor, and as the manager of a small business) to know you're grossy over-exaggerating.

For companies that outsource their IT, it changes nothing. It's still "someone" saying a monitor should probably be replaced, and makes no difference if that "someone" is an employee (e.g. CTO) or an outsourced consultant.

Also note that in general (for larger deployments) it's likely to begin with some kind of feasibility study, where someone figures out the "cost vs. benefit" of switching to the OS that would include things like:
  • The cost of modifying, upgrading and/or installing networking infrastructure
  • Determining if the number and type of computers and other hardware (printers, scanners, whatever) need to be changed and how (including comparing existing hardware to the OS's hardware compatibility list/s)
  • The cost of any additional hardware that might be needed
  • Finding and replacing all applications
  • The cost of the new applications
  • The cost of converting any old data into whatever format the new applications want
  • The cost of retraining staff to use the new software
  • Determining a deployment stategy
  • The cost of deployment
Amongst all of that, the cost of replacing a monitor (in the extremely unlikely case that it's necessary at all) is going to be like a fart in a hurricane.


Cheers,

Brendan
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by onlyonemac »

Brendan wrote:In order of smartest to dumbest, it goes like this:
  • A) An OS that doesn't need troubleshooting/workarounds, and therefore has none
  • B) An OS that doesn't need troubleshooting/workarounds, but has unnecessary bloat and unnecessary documentation for troubleshooting/workarounds that are simply not needed
  • C) An OS that does need troubleshooting/workarounds, and has necessary bloat and necessary documentation for troubleshooting/workarounds that are needed
  • D) An OS that does need troubleshooting/workarounds, but has none.
In order of smartest to dumbest:
  • A programmer that attempts to write an OS that won't need workarounds, but is aware that the OS will need them nevertheless and provides appropriate workarounds
  • A programmer that writes an OS that needs workarounds, and provides appropriate workarounds
  • A programmer that attempts to write an OS that won't need workarounds, and doesn't accept that in reality the OS will still need some workarounds and so fails to provide appropriate workarounds
  • A programmer that writes an OS that needs workarounds, but fails to provide appropriate workarounds
When you start writing an OS you do the minimum possible to get the x86 processor in a usable state, then you try to get as far away from it as possible.

Syntax checkup:
Wrong: OS's, IRQ's, zero'ing
Right: OSes, IRQs, zeroing
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by Brendan »

Hi,
onlyonemac wrote:In order of smartest to dumbest:
  • A programmer that attempts to write an OS that won't need workarounds, but is aware that the OS will need them nevertheless and provides appropriate workarounds
  • A programmer that writes an OS that needs workarounds, and provides appropriate workarounds
  • A programmer that attempts to write an OS that won't need workarounds, and doesn't accept that in reality the OS will still need some workarounds and so fails to provide appropriate workarounds
  • A programmer that writes an OS that needs workarounds, but fails to provide appropriate workarounds
Brendan wrote:As an interesting exercise (I have done this myself in the past) for people who want to be OS designers; I'd recommend examining each of the Linux kernel parameters one at a time and trying to think of ways to make each one unnecessary for end users (not necessarily kernel developers).
If you haven't attempted this exercise; you won't realise how fundamentally incompetent most OS designers (who think configuration is needed/beneficial) actually are.


Cheers,

Brendan
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by onlyonemac »

Brendan wrote:
Brendan wrote:As an interesting exercise (I have done this myself in the past) for people who want to be OS designers; I'd recommend examining each of the Linux kernel parameters one at a time and trying to think of ways to make each one unnecessary for end users (not necessarily kernel developers).
If you haven't attempted this exercise; you won't realise how fundamentally incompetent most OS designers (who think configuration is needed/beneficial) actually are.
One parameter that I *do* know is useful for end users is the one to override the automatic video mode setting, without which my dodgy CRT would have been unusable. You still haven't explained what's so fundamentally *wrong* with having kernel parameters - the users that don't need to use them don't even need to know that they exist, but those that do need them will benefit.
When you start writing an OS you do the minimum possible to get the x86 processor in a usable state, then you try to get as far away from it as possible.

Syntax checkup:
Wrong: OS's, IRQ's, zero'ing
Right: OSes, IRQs, zeroing
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by Brendan »

Hi,
onlyonemac wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Brendan wrote:As an interesting exercise (I have done this myself in the past) for people who want to be OS designers; I'd recommend examining each of the Linux kernel parameters one at a time and trying to think of ways to make each one unnecessary for end users (not necessarily kernel developers).
If you haven't attempted this exercise; you won't realise how fundamentally incompetent most OS designers (who think configuration is needed/beneficial) actually are.
One parameter that I *do* know is useful for end users is the one to override the automatic video mode setting, without which my dodgy CRT would have been unusable.
Without which, your dodgy CRT will still be perfectly usable (just with slightly more blur).

Note that if you actually cared about a little blur (other than for the purpose of whining) you would've replace your crappy "1366*768 native resolution only" display with something that has a better native resolution 5+ years ago when everyone else in the world was shifting to 1920*1200 (and wouldn't care now when people are shifting to 4K; and won't care when my OS is actually released, long after your piece of crud has suffered the same fate as all CRTs and becomes too dark even after you've set its brightness setting to maximum).
onlyonemac wrote:You still haven't explained what's so fundamentally *wrong* with having kernel parameters - the users that don't need to use them don't even need to know that they exist, but those that do need them will benefit.
It's fundamentally wrong because:
  • The minimum requirements are that software "just works" (ie. without any end user wankery).
  • Providing end user configuration means that the end user will misconfigure it and screw everything up, and cause a whole pile of "PEBCAK" bug reports.
  • Every single setting is a sign that the OS developer is an incompetent moron that failed to avoid the need for it.
You still haven't explained what's so fundamentally *right* with failing to avoid idiotic nonsense and increasing end user hassle.


Cheers,

Brendan
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by Combuster »

Brendan wrote:It's fundamentally wrong because:
  • The minimum requirements are that software "just works" (ie. without any end user wankery).
That is your requirement, and your requirement alone. In addition, this is why users download Ubuntu, and not build the kernel sources themselves.
Providing end user configuration means that the end user will misconfigure it and screw everything up, and cause a whole pile of "PEBCAK" bug reports.
Which is why users download Ubuntu etc. etc. #-o
Every single setting is a sign that the OS developer is an incompetent moron that failed to avoid the need for it.
You have a very, very bad habit to keep repeating a statement in the attempt to "make" it the truth. It's probably the primary reason why I avoid discussions with you in the first place because the result is almost always dishonourable.
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by onlyonemac »

Brendan wrote:
onlyonemac wrote:One parameter that I *do* know is useful for end users is the one to override the automatic video mode setting, without which my dodgy CRT would have been unusable.
Without which, your dodgy CRT will still be perfectly usable (just with slightly more blur).
It *was* unusable. At that resolution, the pixels were smaller than the phosphor dots so apart from the text being too small to conformally read the letters were also not properly formed.
Brendan wrote:Note that if you actually cared about a little blur (other than for the purpose of whining) you would've replace your crappy "1366*768 native resolution only" display with something that has a better native resolution 5+ years ago when everyone else in the world was shifting to 1920*1200 (and wouldn't care now when people are shifting to 4K; and won't care when my OS is actually released, long after your piece of crud has suffered the same fate as all CRTs and becomes too dark even after you've set its brightness setting to maximum).
I don't remember mentioning anything about a 1366x768 display, but the CRT didn't need replacing because the monitor was fine once it was running at the correct resolution. Besides, it was my parents' old computer and that's all I had. A display is only "crappy" if your OS prevents the user from making proper use of it.
Brendan wrote:It's fundamentally wrong because:
  • The minimum requirements are that software "just works" (ie. without any end user wankery).
  • Providing end user configuration means that the end user will misconfigure it and screw everything up, and cause a whole pile of "PEBCAK" bug reports.
  • Every single setting is a sign that the OS developer is an incompetent moron that failed to avoid the need for it.
First point: it's impossible to make software that "just works" to the event that no workarounds will ever be needed. Second point: users will only need to worry about the configuration if their monitor doesn't work, whence they can follow a simple instruction like "please enter the native resolution of your monitor". Third point: it's not the OS developer's fault that some monitors report incorrect data.
When you start writing an OS you do the minimum possible to get the x86 processor in a usable state, then you try to get as far away from it as possible.

Syntax checkup:
Wrong: OS's, IRQ's, zero'ing
Right: OSes, IRQs, zeroing
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by Schol-R-LEA »

Brendan wrote: The chance of a company buying TVs and not monitors is zero. The chance of a company buying all of the TVs at the same time (and not buying some one year, more the next year, etc; and ending up with many different monitors) is very small. The chance that a sane company would buy many cheap trash TVs without testing one first and realising it's puss before buying the rest is also very small. The chance that a company would then not return them when they realise they suck on every OS is also tiny. The chance that a company would continue using cheap trash for 10 freaking years without replacing any of them is completely absurd.
I really, really wish that this were true, but it is not. Not even close. I have worked in companies that did exactly this, and worse, and there was no sign of them failing as businesses.

You have to understand that business decisions are not based on reason, but on the personality of the decision maker. People can talk themselves into nearly any kind of nonsense, and the personality types who are likely to be running a business are exactly the sort who will doggedly hold on to nonsensical beliefs no matter how out of touch with reality they are.

In evolutionary biology, there is a concept called 'genetic drift': since the majority if genes are either inactive or have a lot of 'play' in the structure of the proteins they encode for, minor mutations which have little or no impact on the biological processes can accumulate and propagate over time. While they may make the processes slightly less efficient, they still will get carried along from generation to generation so long as they don't reduce the relative reproductive success of the individuals carrying them.

Most business decisions are like these genes: they aren't perfect, but they don't really impact the bottom line, at least not enough to affect how competitive the business is. IT purchasing and usage policy decisions are almost always in this category, meaning that they are more likely to be influenced by the whims of the decision makers than by the actual added value of the decisions. The practical upshot of this is that a lot of stupid decisions of exactly this sort never get corrected, until their effect actually hurts the business's success.

I mentioned The Daily WTF and Not Always Working earlier. Humor value aside, these sites serve as a wake-up call for anyone who thinks that free market interactions (to the extent that they actually occur in the real world at all) are absolutely self-correcting. While they are to a certain degree, that mechanism is neither infallible nor rapid, and the self-correction is often - even usually - overwhelmed by out-of-market influences (political, social, psychological, meteorological, geographical, etc.) that are more powerful than the rather delicate market forces. Consider: most of the ludicrous coding and design mistakes highlighted on The Daily WTF did not cause a disastrous failure, and many worked 'well enough' that they passed through code reviews and were put into production, and only got noticed when either some edge case arose that broke them, or when someone happened to find them while making unrelated code changes. Furthermore, many of these bugs go uncorrected even after being found, for reasons unrelated to good design which were deemed more important. Now consider that for every one of these bugs, there are probably a dozen, or maybe a hundred, in the same codebase that never get noticed at all.
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by Brendan »

Hi,
Combuster wrote:
Brendan wrote:It's fundamentally wrong because:
  • The minimum requirements are that software "just works" (ie. without any end user wankery).
That is your requirement, and your requirement alone. In addition, this is why users download Ubuntu, and not build the kernel sources themselves.
As far as I can tell (at least, for 80x86 PC compatible systems); the push towards auto-detection/auto-configuration began in earnest with IBM in the 1980s (with their Micro Channel architecture), and during the 1990s the entire industry grabbed the idea and added it to virtually everything; including adding auto-detection/auto-configuration capabilities in virtually all new hardware since then, and including retro-fitting auto-detection/auto-configuration capabilities to older hardware (ISA, serial, parallel, etc) via. a series of "plug and play" standards.

Essentially; auto-detection/auto-configuration has been "minimum requirements" for the entire industry for 20 years now.
Combuster wrote:
Providing end user configuration means that the end user will misconfigure it and screw everything up, and cause a whole pile of "PEBCAK" bug reports.
Which is why users download Ubuntu etc. etc.
Preferring "less hassle" is human nature. It's why people who want to like Linux download Ubuntu (and why the majority of them get disappointed and switch back to Windows or OS X). Note: OS developers are a bad "statistical sample" for multiple reasons as they're much more willing to get deep into "internals" than an average user ever will be.
Combuster wrote:
Every single setting is a sign that the OS developer is an incompetent moron that failed to avoid the need for it.
You have a very, very bad habit to keep repeating a statement in the attempt to "make" it the truth. It's probably the primary reason why I avoid discussions with you in the first place because the result is almost always dishonourable.
What makes you think it's not the truth? All I see is an unfounded desire for people to continue believing a myth due to "historical inertia".

Yes; I have a bad habit of replying to people who are repeatedly wrong.


Cheers,

Brendan
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Re: Dodgy EDIDs (was: What does your OS look like?)

Post by Combuster »

Brendan wrote:What makes you think it's not the truth?
Honestly? Because it contains the word "moron" and by historical inertia resorting to agression is reserved for people incapable of proper argument.
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