is that the right way to be professional ?

mohammed · Post by **mohammed** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:21 pm

when i read any biography of a programmer i found that he had his college study, he studied math befor studying programming and got a PHD
no one of the said "Well,i read many tutorials on the net and the i made this (any great thing!)".....i realy sarted to believe that the academic study is the right and strait way to be a professional .. what do you think ?

Colonel Kernel · Post by **Colonel Kernel** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:17 am

It worked for me.

I'm involved a lot in the hiring process at my workplace, and I can tell you that candidates with no formal education only make it if they have truly exceptional skills or experience, which is quite rare. A degree really goes a long way.

Don't worry about the PhD right away though... For getting started in the software industry, it's usually counterproductive. It's better to get a bachelor's degree and take part in a work-study program at the same time. PhDs come in handy once you want to become an "official genius" and work in a research position.

Cheery · Post by **Cheery** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:51 am

mohammed wrote:"Well,i read many tutorials on the net and the i made this (any great thing!)"

There is not really 'tutorials' who trains you doing great things, you must find those things out yourself unless you find somebody who tells you them.

I'm really too impatient to actually get any kind of academic degree so I read on myself about programming, thought 1% of them are tutorials. Most tutorials suck @$$!

Why use thousand lines when you can say it in fifty lines?

First time when I started programming was when I was 9 or 10, thought.

It's soon 10 years after I started and I've almost it all.

I think I won't waste my school time to programming but learn deeper aspects of other stuff I like, stuff like biology, physics, more math, chemistry, music, electronics, computer hardware, etc.

mohammed · Post by **mohammed** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:06 pm

i don't want the academic way beacause i want to work (i realy beleive in the free software)i want to study because i want to satisfy my needs !
these books is the markets won't do that. but i still deem the college books is better.. if you don't want to study then read the college books...but how can i get it ?!!what is the best college that teach computer science ?

There is not really 'tutorials' who trains you doing great things, you must find those things out yourself unless you find somebody who tells you them.

it is the cipher that i can't solve how can i find some one to tell me or how can i find it with myself unless i know that right way..

xyjamepa · Post by **xyjamepa** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:41 am

Let me tell you mohammed that the academic study
doesn't make you a professionl the way you want
it just buts you on the start of the right way and after
that you should go and read some books,some articles
from the net and then try to make something with your
knowledge get some troubles try to solve them,you are
on the right way...so i agree with Colonel Kernel and Cheery

smbogan · Post by **smbogan** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:41 pm

Education gives you a large advantage, but you can do it without it. Someone with a formal education will probably start out ahead of you, and will likely have less work to do to prove themselves. If you are just developing for free software, and don't intend to make a living out of it, studying other people's code and reading tutorials will get you on your way.

distantvoices · Post by **distantvoices** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:39 am

In my opinion it is way better to have some sort of formal education. It gives you tools to handle stuff in ways one would never dream of if just self educated by reading books & tutorials.

mohammed · Post by **mohammed** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:14 am

reading tutorials and studying others codes willn't make me like linus trovald for example .he wrote free software but he studied in the unevristy
right?i readed his biography
(tutorials may help in adding a new idea but learn you "from 0 to professional"?)it became a word that every book say but it is not true i think some tutorials make your life like hell i read in a very bad arabic tutorials about assembly this "if you didn't understand that because of you ,you can't undersatnd not because of our bad explanation but because it is very hard subject to maintain realy!!"

Combuster · Post by **Combuster** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:31 am

The biggest problem is, a tutorial gives you only one small part of the image. You need background information to know what on earth is actually going on, which can only be acquired by reading several documents. It can be done, but its difficult. More easy is going to a college of "System Architecture" which provides all that information gathered together in one series of classes. One month of proper education revealed pretty much everything which i have been learning myself the many years before I went to university. (10 years of experience summarized in one course).

So far, university taught me lots of things i already knew, making it pretty much boring.

However, what university can not give you is practical experience. Working on large projects outside of school give you more insight in practical use than the 1000 lines of code at most you need to write for any one assignment. (My main kernel is ~3500 lines, and that is just one out of some 500 files my os consists of...)

mohammed · Post by **mohammed** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:36 am

what is the university that you joined ?does all university make this "System Architecture" at it's computer science departments ?
your 10 years is something that learn us patience and i think it changed many things in my mind (it's a very long way that you will not achieve it's end untill many years!)

TheQuux · Post by **TheQuux** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:30 am

Right now I'm a freshman at UCLA... just finished my first semester. I already have a job programming for a fairly major company (that was intended to be ambiguous), and I'm developing an OS. So, no, you don't need a degree to get into programming professionally.

However... if I were hiring (knowing the little that I know now), the "tutorial" stuff would carry some weight, possibly more than a degree, because someone who hits up the tutorials will probably be more enthusiastic about programming than someone who went to Uni to get a degree so that they could get a big paycheck. OTOH, the guy who went to Uni probably churns out better code than the tutorial person. So, the tutorial person would need to also have worked on some pretty big projects...

BUT. I'm not in any hiring department, and I have no idea how it works in the real world. I just think that writing an OS and an AI that hates Ford Mustangs (gargle the "Darpa Grand Challenge" for that one) is a little more impressive than a MS in CompSci.

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:18 am

Hi,

TheQuux wrote:BUT. I'm not in any hiring department, and I have no idea how it works in the real world.

I'm a little more skeptical - I wouldn't be surprised if most people doing the hiring have a stack of applications, and "pre-sort" them. If you're an "average" programmer with qualifications from a university you'll probably survive the pre-sorting, but if you're an excellent programmer with real-world experience instead of formal training it'd be much harder for the people doing the hiring to determine how suitable you are, so you'd be less likely to survive the pre-sorting....

IMHO what you know and what you can do isn't as relevant as what proof you can supply without causing hassles. For example, if you provide a URL for an OS project you've written, will the people doing the hiring examine the intricacies of your source code or just put you in the "too hard" basket?

Of course it would depend on the company and the position you're applying for...

Cheers,

Brendan

Tyler · Post by **Tyler** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:30 am

They would never search the source code, but they may look up the application. It really depends on how you word your application, CV and in the case of someone without qualificaions, cover letter with mention of as many achievments as possible. The best thing for the unqualified (believe me i know) is to word the cover letter so that it shows what you have doe before mentioning your qualifications and so there is no effort on the part of the emloyer. When i was writing to numerous companies to get my current job i mentioned my OS experience and showed them it during the interview as the "proof", though at that stage they take your word so jsut show off.

Basically, if my proffesional you mean the right way, as opposed to how to get paid, then no this probably isn't the best way. Unfortunately i couldn't hack learning VB again so i quit college so we have to make do and do what we can. I like to think i am proffesional about my work even though it is incredibly hard for me and will only get harder as i get older, luckily i still live off my dad and he has the qualifications.

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is that the right way to be professional ?

is that the right way to be professional ?

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