Whats gonna be the future

[Solar]

I (mis)interpreted your comment to mean you believe Linus should have restricted usage of Linux code in order to prevent DRM applications being developed with it.

Hehe... yep, that's a misunderstanding.

The problem is that the new generation of DRM - the "Trusted Computing" - starts at the hardware level. Only if your system is "secure" (as in, digital content is secure from being copied because only certified secure software is running on the system), you can actually use digital content.

A strong opposition from the Linux camp was about the last straw that could have made a difference. Linus could have said "this technology is evil, Linux will not support it". Not that I think it would have helped much, since RedHat / SuSE could still have forked a "secure" Linux thanks to the GPL. But Linus said "no problem", so TCPA is all over us.

What's so bad about TCPA?

Well, today it might make sure your copy of Windows is legally yours.

Tomorrow it might make sure that you cannot create MP3's on your system that aren't encrypted. With DMCA et al tightly in place, "free" software must not decrypt those MP3's. If you install a "free" MP3 encrypter, all other TCPA-enabled software on your system might stop functioning.

The next day it might make sure that you cannot listen to MP3's on your system that aren't encrypted, and not before you have payed the RIAA for listening to your songs today. Having a "free" OS (or any OS that didn't come preinstalled on your hardware) installed for dual boot makes your TCPA-enabled OS stop functioning because there's "insecure" software on the system. (Bye bye OS development.)

...

You might claim that this won't happen, that the public outcry would be deafening. Wake up. It is happening already. The laws are being placed (DMCA, software patents), the technology is on the market, and all the big players - including Linus - are on the bandwaggon.

Will it become as bad as pictured above? Well, let's see, who is on the "pro TCPA" side? Microsoft, Intel, AMD, RIAA, MPAA, all major software vendors. They just don't tell. (Why should they?)

Who's on the "contra TCPA" side?

The end user, and most of them blissfully unaware of the topic.

It will come. That is the future.

[Pype.Clicker]

hmm ... from what i've read of Microsoft document about TCPA, things did not appear to me that way (well, they say what they want me to believe, will you reply -- you might be true. They are the ones who know). In virtually every case, the TCPA architecture was running as a "safe process" of your legacy OS, providing a secure infrastructure for the secure program, but there were no attempt to prevent a unsecure program to access hardware resources.

Just consider this: who would sell a system that forbid the end user from creating a new program ? And if you can create a new program, what prevent you from making it encoding sounds from any source it comes ?

Why would it restrict your system to give access to the microphone or to the audio CD device ? and if it do, what does prevent you from receiving the audio data a non-tcpa platform would send you through the network ?

Sony already made attemps to sell "secure CDs" that may damage your CD rom reader because it's not a HiFi installation. Do they still use those CDs ? Are there any information on how bad these CD were sold of any customer-rights association claims ?

As a final solve, if tcpa is imposed in the way you fear, well ... we'll have the escape route of installing old'good Linux 2.4 on PS/2 clusters.

[BI lazy]

Those sentences remind me of "Big Brother Is Watching You" ...

But beneath Solar's pathetism (have you attended kinda writing course?), what remains of his sentences gives me a chill breeze of foretelling of what's due to come...

something to think: Internet 's been a big opportunity for hacking and cracking and just plain spoken being kinda hog. using an opportunity is ok although not RIGHT in sense of moralism and law, but doing so in mass and with all this bragging just upsets some big guys. And this has resulted in big ones like the RIAA going nuts and sueing all they could get for downloading mp3z. (as i say: in silence done no one would have asked for it nor even cared)

Thank you

[Solar]

In virtually every case, the TCPA architecture was running as a "safe process" of your legacy OS, providing a secure infrastructure for the secure program, but there were no attempt to prevent a unsecure program to access hardware resources.

Not in their current incarnation. The reins can be pulled tighter step by step once the basic technology has found acceptance.

The leverage is there.

Just consider this: who would sell a system that forbid the end user from creating a new program ?

You mean, in 10-15 years when everyone is dependent on the services only provided by TCPA systems? Like, every major software vendor not wanting those pesky shareware products lowering sales?

They won't step up to the plate and make the very next system generation being as restrictive as TCPA could make them. Hell no, companies would see how their old
software wouldn't work anymore! Nah, they will creep it in step by step...

And if you can create a new program, what prevent you from making it encoding sounds from any source it comes ?

TCPA in "final state" will be an all-encrypted system. The CD-ROM transmits the audio encrypted so that only a TCPA-enabled grabber can decrypt it. That grabber will save in an encrypted format only a TCPA-enabled encoder can read. That encoder will only write encrypted MP3's. The player sends the data to the soundcard encrypted, so only a TCPA enabled soundcard will turn it into audio.

I'm not sure what they will do about analogous copies, but they managed to make analogous VCR signals copy protected so I think they'll manage that, too.

I don't say it's there in writing, or that it will be there in the first (or second) generation of TCPA. But TCPA has the potential, and there are billions of bucks to be won by the media and software industry. You bet they will take the chance.

and if it do, what does prevent you from receiving the audio data a non-tcpa platform would send you through the network ?

The third or fourth generation TCPA network driver only accepting TCPA-enabled counterparts?

You know that Microsoft has long since been working on a proprietary extension of the TCP/IP protocol, no?

Sony already made attemps to sell "secure CDs" that may damage your CD rom reader because it's not a HiFi installation.

A good percentage of the CDs I can buy today won't play on my MP3 HiFi. They don't exactly damage it, but they won't play either.

As a final solve, if tcpa is imposed in the way you fear, well ... we'll have the escape route of installing old'good Linux 2.4 on PS/2 clusters.

And do... what? Websites will be built "optimized for TCPA-enabled browers". Perhaps even your ISP will require you to run TCPA-enabled OS only. Mail routers will deny forwarding your e-mail because it's not "certified". You cannot receive e-mail from TCPA users because you can't decrypt it. Word documents, MP3's, MPEGs etc. etc. could be all TCPA encrypted.

Again, I don't say it's in there in writing, or even intended as of today. But the technology is capable of restricting you this much, and wherever there's money to make, your rights as a customer go down the drain.

1984 was 19 years ago.

But beneath Solar's pathetism (have you attended kinda writing course?)

No, but I like language, and wanted to become a writer once before I realized it isn't likely to earn me a living.

Thanks for the compliment.

...what remains of his sentences gives me a chill breeze of foretelling of what's due to come...

It's the one thing hungrily eating away my motivation to continue with my OS project. By the time we get anywhere close to release, we'll be very likely doomed to be a novelty only unless we implement TCPA too - and I will not do that.

[Pype.Clicker]

Well, if all Solar tells become true, imho, a TCPA platform will no longer be a computer! a Web Appliance or Set Top Box, or an Online Game Console yes. maybe. But not a computer.

I don't honestly think that they could decently decide that only signed programs could run on their secure platforms. Think of scientific, medical applications, developped for the sole purpose of one client ... think of those small enterprises that sell dedicated solution to small clients ... no big company could face such a diverse demand ... what will they do ? Virtual machines ?

The power of the PC comes from the fact you can do anything with it ... and not only things some big company has decided you could do.

As for routers dropping unsigned documents, i don't believe in it either, first because they'll have no cpu time to spare in checking signatures. End-to-end checking is feasible, but not hop-by-hop!

Now maybe i'm wrong and that i'll wake up one day from my dreams of freedom in the nightmare Solar described. Maybe then i'll see his face in the mist of my naiveness saying "welcome to the real world".
But i'll keep my hope -- "they're not *that* mad" -- until that day comes, ignoring the possible threat as i ignore that i could be smashed by a meteor everytime i walk outdoor.

[nullify]

Not to pick a fight or anything, but I highly doubt the future Solar depicts as becoming true in all its horror. Either A) Microsoft's plans are not as evil as they are portrayed by the anti-palladium propaganda (slashdotters are notoriously biased) and the world as we know it will not end or B) as Pype.Clicker points out, the Intel x86 PC architecture will degenerate into something of less magnitude. There will always be a community users who want to tinker with their stuff and explore alternative "free" software. They will realize the restrictions first and migrate to other more flexible architectures. If TCPA really starts to hamper the user so much that your typical Joe User even becomes affected, they will be compelled to explore alternative architectures too. Intel may end up as a niche player, losing market share to other, less restrictive alternatives.

Was he talking about the possibility of adding DRM to his "official" Linus-blessed code tree?

No; either this is a common misconception, or I misinterpreted Linus' e-mail to linux-kernel. He simply refuses to place restrictions on DRM, but does *not* specifically incorporate DRM support code into his "official" kernel tree.

"And like the software patent issue, I also don't necessarily like DRM myself, but I still ended up feeling the same: I'm an "Oppenheimer", and I refuse to play politics with Linux, and I think you can use Linux for whatever you want to - which very much includes things I don't necessarily personally approve of."
-Linus Torvalds

The full comment is at
http://pclinuxonline.com/modules.php?na ... e&sid=5016

[Solar]

Erm... as for alternatives, Motorola is a TCPA member...

I'll rest my case, after providing a link to noTCPA.org. Rest assured that the last time I so sincerely hoped I was in error with my predictions, was a few years ago when I predicted the slow death of the Amiga PPC efforts... :-[

[Pype.Clicker]

i get a quick look at "notcpa.org", which imho lacks technical explanations to settle their accusations. Far from me the idea of saying that TCPA is a Good Thing (tm), i suggest the reading of "informative contents" in the TCG specifications to people that wish to make their own opinion.

Of course, comparing the rise of TCPA with the curse of Amiga is concerning, but though i would like to mention the following points:

• unlike amiga, PCs are not bound to a specific company. anybody can build PCs from components, and as long as there will be demand (and no dictatorial social power to rule the market), there will be offer ... Not seeing transmeta nor SuN in the members list gives me a breath of hope.
• The Internet is not limitted to PCs aswell (even if the huge majority of hosts systems are PCs). I can imagine an Internet where access to a download server would be refused if the system cannot provide a valid identity (for instance, SquareSoft could refuse to give you Final Fantasy XX if it can prove your system is not a PS2), but i can hardly imagine the access to the network itself could be refused. The only major risk i can see is having to pay for both ISP and TISP in order to have a decent service, the very same way i pay for both ISP and television distribution in order to have a full entertainment service.
• several points sounds unpractical, like "Disney will be able to sell you DVD that run on your TCPA only" ... How could Disney know how to encode the media for your PC only ? will they have to burn DVDs on demand, which will cost *vey* much, compared to the price of pressing (or printing, dunno the correct term) N copies of the very same DVD.
• There was nothing like no longer selling VCR tapes when DVD-Rom came around, and audio tapes were still sold when Audio CD were born aswell. The low price of CD burners did made audio tape obsolete. Imho, a new technology cannot fully replace the old one until it provides at least the same service.

Now i'm stopping or i'll be the one to start the flame war ...

the only winning move is not to play :p

[BI lazy]

Nice argument...

ad Amiga & Commodore: The only thing to say about these is: They dug their own tombs by NOT approaching to the people, by insisting on a kind of "geek" status and not advertising for the otto-normal-user - like the pc-guys have done.

And yes, I have enjoyed daddling with my c64. Memories full of joy and light are connected with this box, so No Bad Words About It (tm).

regarding all your worries about tcpa and drm ... think why it came. I just tell you a tale. Its short. No Fear. *gg*

There lies a monster, huge and broad, not caring much about what goes on in the world except of his own business. (say Music Industry). then there comes the internet ... nothing of interest. But there were some guys discovering the Holy Grail of Mp3. What they used it for? They tore the diamonds out of the monsters tail. The monster didn't care.

they tore more diamonds out of it.

The monster is big - have I said this already - and it's nerves anen't that fast. A signal from the tail arriving to the brain needs a looong time. And then it needs more time to come to the decision: This Hurts!. And the monster decides to wag the tail to get rid of the guys depriving it of its diamonds.

the guys aren't that big and their signals don't need long to approach the brains, which told:

Ouch, This Hurts?!

See: Actio - Reactio. the old old game. Even a child learns sooner or later what happens when it touches the hot plate of the hearth.

[Solar]

The problem is: I never had any kind of P2P software installed. I just enjoyed my rights.

I was allowed to grab my audio to MP3 to carry on the road.

I was allowed to tell my friend "gee, this is good music!", and grab me a copy off his CD (just like, in the olden times, I would have taped a copy).

I wasn't the one picking diamonds from the monster's tail. Yet still, me - and my children, and others like me - are hit by the monster: Law that has been in place for many decades is changed, limiting my rights.

When the private copy is outlawed - which will probably happen as soon as next year for us Germans - a whole type of music which I have been enjoying very much - filk - will die, because it exists due to the private copy.

Same will happen to the many independent artists not affiliated with a big label: They live from having their music distributed - yes, even by Napster! - and the occassional person buying a CD because he/she likes the music. (Instead of the ripping kiddies going for whatever is "hip" today.)

Same game as privacy. Are they allowed to limit everyone's freedom to get the odd bad apple in the lot?

If you answer "yes" too often, we'll wake up to something between 1984 and Gestapo NG. "What do you have to hide?"

PS: I wasn't comparing Amiga with the PC platform. I just seem to have the unfortunate skill of having a pretty "precise" doomsaying skill... which gives me the creeps in this case.