To Chase

[Anton]

>and you CAN copy normal DVDs with no problem -- but not the specially-
>formatted  DVD video discs
I am talking about encrypted DVD, not regular data DVD=so this is in hardware, and you can not copy them.

>HDDs are ALREADY CAPABLE OF THIS in fact if you use XP-professional parts of
>your HDD are already encripted and you can encript anything you want very  
>easily
I am not taling about encripting the data, i am talking about encrypting the comunication protocol. So, instead of sending a regual LBA, you will have to send a encrypted LBA.

>>your last line doesnt make sense -- do you lock the  door on  your house
>>when you leave? how about the car when you go into the store? why? if any  
>>lock can be broken (and of course it can)...
I lock it, because i know that i don;t have fows, which have a goal to brake in. What i am saying is that if this whole whing is supposed to protect data, then it will not, since if some one will whant to have someones data, then it will not matter to him, whether this data is locked or not-he wil brake in into any system. But on the other hand, this whole thing will requare ALOT of money, which ofcourse will come from the pocket of regular users.


Anton.

[gaf]

I'm not one of those who think that Microsoft or Intel is pure evil but they are global players, and as such their goal is not to improve your life but to earn as much money as possible. Like all companies they want to rule over their market and TCPA is the tool needed to fullfill this goal. With it all software will have to be certificated but minor companies and opensource projects won't be able to affort the costs so they will just vanish, and the big players can share the market among theirselfs. They can then release *any* crap and the people will still buy it because there's hardly any alternative...
Just think about it: Why would anybody need TCPA ?
Pmode with it's rings already allows the OS to encapsulate itself totaly from the userprogramms. Based on this it's the OS's job to ensure security. Viruses (...) therefore only succeed due to bad system design and no hardware can ever fix that lack.

regards,
gaf

[JAAman]

basically what Intel is doing is another ring (ring -1)

why we need this? I dont know ring 0 seems enough to me

as was mentioned earlier full security is theoretically imposible (and practically even more so) but your right it is the OS resposibility -- and thankfully winXP has gotten it quite well

[Anton]

>>in fact the hardware has nothing to do with the encription
Here is proof of my staements, so please dont argue, and admit that you are wrong.:
http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology ... _specs.htm
look in the DVD sector header:
The header contains the following information:

Field Bytes Content
ID 4 Sector type, data type, layer number and sector number
IED 2 ID error correction code
CPR_MAI 6 Copy protection and region code (for DVD-Video)

So, please know your facts, before argueing with me.
Anton.

[ezanahka]

U know I'm starting to think that this whole TCPA thing might actually be just another way to rip off consumers. Soon hw manufacturers might actually be stopped by technological difficulties and limits from making faster and smaller equipment. I know I've heard that so many times from all possible sources... So now they are going to make money by adding security features to their processors? Yep, that might be this is mainly about...

[Anton]

Exactly, there main goal is to earn(rip off regular consumers) more money, and NOT to make the computers more secure. They(first of all i am talking about MS(not Intel)), whant to have full monopoly over the making of the software, since only they will have access to the encription keys, for everyboady else these keys will be a BIG secret(until somebody will hack it). Therefore everyone will be foreced in to using MS products(not Linux ).
And like i said previously, this will not make the world of computers more secure, since of anyone realy needs to brake in somewhere they will do it whether this TCPA exsists or not. So, the only thing on there mind is money.
Anton.

[JAAman]

well thank-you for prooving my point
if its in the header it CANNOT be hardware!!!
although i believe there is a hardware aspect to it the encription is comtrolled through software

the header tells the software what decription keys to use then the software reads the disc and decripts it based on the keys and serial codes

the hardware cannot even read the sector header -- that would be like saying all harddrives are FAT32 and cannot be any other Filesystem becase the FAT32 info is in the headers -- look it up the header is read  by the software not the hardware if the hardware were involved(exclusivly) there would BE NO HEADER (none would be required since the hardware cannot read it anyway)

[Anton]

Well i expected this reply, knowing that you proboly know little about how the data is stored on storage devices. Well, i can open you eyes:the HDD,CD-ROM,DVD-ROM all have headers at the beggining of there sectors. This header contains information such as the position of the header(sector number for the HDD), check sums, .. This is used NOT by the software, but by the controller of the device to check the validity of the read data. The DVD controller also has information about the region number. It uses this to give access to the read sector.
As far as i know, the way this whole thing works is as follows: first the you need to exchange(handshake) secret keys between the program(driver) and the DVD-rom. Then you use this key, to encode all other data. Then you read(ask the DVD-rom) the region number. If it is a legal software, then you refuse to play if the regions do not match. Then you read a speacial table on the disk(know file represent it), and then you use the keys in the table to initialize the DVD-rom for decoding. Then you get your sector.-I repeat again that this is as far as i know.
Anton.

[JAAman]

you mentioned earlier that this idea is based on your attempt to copy a DVD?
of course that wont work: you cant copy a DVD-9(~8.5GB) to a DVD-R(DVD-5: ~4.5GB)

since 4.5GB < 8.5GB this will never work!

my evidence:
the courts ruled that 123studios (maker of the most popular DVD copier avalible) must remove the DVD decription from the software but IT WILL STILL COPY DVDs!!

but it cannot EDIT them! it used to decript the DVDs in order to reduce the quality and remove so things so it could copy it to a single-layer disc since DVD-video is 3-4GB/hr and wont fit on a standard DVD

however it will still copy the disc to one of the new dual-layer DVD-Rs (or to two separate DVDs, I believe)

riping to ISO is really a matter of reading sectors which cannot be blocked

[Anton]

>>riping to ISO is really a matter of reading sectors which cannot be blocked
Well, they are blocked-> i can't copy a DVD iso to my HDD(not to a DVD), unless i use DVDDecripter.
BTW, try to copy the files(VOB) using the file manager:they will not copy.
Anton.

[Legend]

Perhaps other APIs next to DirectX (except perhaps OpenGL, which does bascially fine enough) might die - but mostly because othere APIs in this area suck - or do you know a good one? It makes more sense to paint stuff yourself using OpenGL in X11 then using X11 directly because the XLib is a pain. Or you may use Qt which is on top of that - however, Qt has other tasks then OpenGL.

[Legend]

Anyway - why do you want to copy it digitally to your HDD if you don't want to spread it out? For backup? You do - as years ago - a non-digital copy, however then you have some quality loss ..

[Legend]

There is a project in HP to create a TCPA-compliant and certificated Linux - however, that Linux then will behave like the TCPA-Windows then, with encrypting documents, sorting applications between certificated (and trusted then) and un-trusted ones etc.
This might help to keep a big deal of Linux users silent.

[Anton]

>>why do you want to copy it digitally to your HDD
I don't(but i ofcourse know how to do it).
This "talk" about DVD copying started, because i think that TCPA will make the HDD like that-> To write a HDD driver, you would need to know certain codes, which will be a secret(Like with DVD players). And ofcouse these codes will not be know to public, only certified companies like Microsoft, ... will know them and be able to write the driver for the HDD. So, this will mean that we os developers will not be able to write a HDD driver, untill someone breaks the code.(I agree that there might be some agrement with Linux by HP, but that will be only Linux, and what about all other os-being home brewed.)

Anton

[Legend]

For media data, for sure it will be encrypted, but the whole HDD?

Legend