Hey, Chase,
Are you againt TCPA(http://www.againsttcpa.com)? Maybe you should put a logo againt it?
Anton
To Chase
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Gnome
TCPA isn't all bad
Maybe I'm just opening up a can of worms here, but I think saying "TCPA = evil" is just tinfoil-hat talk here.
"Trusted Computing" is just an extra security framework in the computer's hardware. This could be a good thing. It lets the OS do finer-grained security checks.
However, problems arise when that framework a) is closed, proprietary, etc. and locked away from the user and the public's eye, or b) restricts the user's activities (i.e, based on legal or corporate objectives). This is what I fear it will be used for.
I think that instead of lobbying against trusted computing in general, people should be lobbying for the specifications for such a system to be open and well-documented. It should give the user control over their system, not remove it. I think it's inevitable that such a system be developed, and when it does, we must be sure it's done properly.
Gnome.
"Trusted Computing" is just an extra security framework in the computer's hardware. This could be a good thing. It lets the OS do finer-grained security checks.
However, problems arise when that framework a) is closed, proprietary, etc. and locked away from the user and the public's eye, or b) restricts the user's activities (i.e, based on legal or corporate objectives). This is what I fear it will be used for.
I think that instead of lobbying against trusted computing in general, people should be lobbying for the specifications for such a system to be open and well-documented. It should give the user control over their system, not remove it. I think it's inevitable that such a system be developed, and when it does, we must be sure it's done properly.
Gnome.
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Anton
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
The only reason i see TCPA beging developed is for "a) is closed, proprietary, etc. and locked away from the user and the public's eye, or b) restricts the user's activities (i.e, based on legal or corporate objectives). "
They are doing it, so that YOU will not be able to write your own OS. So, that YOU will not have a chose of what software to use(you know how i am talking about
). It's the same as with DVD region locking. This region locking is not against piracy or something of that sort, it's for getting more money of the people from reach contries(In india the same DVD costs like $1 ).
They is also being done to restrict the users's activities:no more grabing of music, video. Can't copy DVD's to HDD,...
Ofcourse the most important thing (If you missed it above) is that you will not be able to write your own OS, unless you have several 100 thousand dollars to pay for the needed info.
Anton.
PS. BTW, how can you make an open and well-documented system secury?
This is a contradiction.
They are doing it, so that YOU will not be able to write your own OS. So, that YOU will not have a chose of what software to use(you know how i am talking about
). It's the same as with DVD region locking. This region locking is not against piracy or something of that sort, it's for getting more money of the people from reach contries(In india the same DVD costs like $1 ).They is also being done to restrict the users's activities:no more grabing of music, video. Can't copy DVD's to HDD,...
Ofcourse the most important thing (If you missed it above) is that you will not be able to write your own OS, unless you have several 100 thousand dollars to pay for the needed info.
Anton.
PS. BTW, how can you make an open and well-documented system secury?
This is a contradiction.-
Gnome
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
It's not a contradiction at all. In fact, if the security is done properly, there should be no reason at all to hide the details of it.
Common encryption algorithms, AES for example, are well-documented, but there is still no easy way to crack them except by brute force, because the math they are based on does not allow it. This is the same thing. If, for example, the only way to communicate with this device is through Ring 0 instructions, then only the kernel can talk to it. If the kernel is well-written, then it in turn will not allow user-mode code to access it, by just not exposing it to them through system calls, etc.
At any rate, it is a serious issue if these devices are closed. Take a look at https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org . They're working on a system like I'm describing here.
Common encryption algorithms, AES for example, are well-documented, but there is still no easy way to crack them except by brute force, because the math they are based on does not allow it. This is the same thing. If, for example, the only way to communicate with this device is through Ring 0 instructions, then only the kernel can talk to it. If the kernel is well-written, then it in turn will not allow user-mode code to access it, by just not exposing it to them through system calls, etc.
At any rate, it is a serious issue if these devices are closed. Take a look at https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org . They're working on a system like I'm describing here.
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JAAman
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
what??? did someone say the system is propriatary?? what do you mean you wont be able to write your own SO?? thats not true at all!!!
Intel is developing a lot of the technology for their future processors but they have ALWAYS been EXTREMELY open
all necessary info for OSdev will be availible FREE OF CHARGE I'm sure of that
---everything Intel does has been freely availible
Intel is developing a lot of the technology for their future processors but they have ALWAYS been EXTREMELY open
all necessary info for OSdev will be availible FREE OF CHARGE I'm sure of that
---everything Intel does has been freely availible
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Anton
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
>AES for example, are well-documented, but there is still no easy way to crack
>them except by brute force
Exactly, and no one will tell you the encryption key, it will be a secret between the manufacturer of the device and the software developers(just like with the DVD region coding and DVD players(Ofcourse this key is now not a secret, since it had been broken)). So, until you crack that encription, you will not be able to write your own driver for that device in you OS.
Anton.
>them except by brute force
Exactly, and no one will tell you the encryption key, it will be a secret between the manufacturer of the device and the software developers(just like with the DVD region coding and DVD players(Ofcourse this key is now not a secret, since it had been broken)). So, until you crack that encription, you will not be able to write your own driver for that device in you OS.
Anton.
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Anton
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
>Intel is developing a lot of the technology for their future processors but
>they have ALWAYS been EXTREMELY open
Excatly, but that is for now. In the future they plan to restrict the amount of people able to write there own software, by means of encripting the messages between the devices.
>all necessary info for OSdev will be availible FREE OF CHARGE I'm sure of that
The encription for DVD region is not for free at all.(!!!Give me a link to an official site, which gives the sources for reading regioned DVD!!!!-good luck )
So, they(device manufacturers) will cooperate with software developers(namely Microsoft), and only they(Microsoft) will be able to write software for these devices. So, i repeat, this is done, so that WE will not be able to write our own OSs, cause no one will give us these encription keys for free, and it's not in the benifit of Microsoft to do that(Cause i think we, OS developers, are a big pain in the @$$ for Microsoft)
Anton.
>they have ALWAYS been EXTREMELY open
Excatly, but that is for now. In the future they plan to restrict the amount of people able to write there own software, by means of encripting the messages between the devices.
>all necessary info for OSdev will be availible FREE OF CHARGE I'm sure of that
The encription for DVD region is not for free at all.(!!!Give me a link to an official site, which gives the sources for reading regioned DVD
!!!!-good luck )So, they(device manufacturers) will cooperate with software developers(namely Microsoft), and only they(Microsoft) will be able to write software for these devices. So, i repeat, this is done, so that WE will not be able to write our own OSs, cause no one will give us these encription keys for free, and it's not in the benifit of Microsoft to do that(Cause i think we, OS developers, are a big pain in the @$$ for Microsoft)
Anton.
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Moose
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
"Cause i think we, OS developers, are a big pain in the @$$ for Microsoft"
I dont know, i would not be surprised if MS actually checked out work from osdevers here and reviewed and used programming ideas that said developers have.
In fact, i would not be surprised if they actually stole code from other devers on this site. Who's going to know where said block of code came from and since not a wide number of people have access to windows source means you and i are not going to find out if ms stole our code.
Moose
I dont know, i would not be surprised if MS actually checked out work from osdevers here and reviewed and used programming ideas that said developers have.
In fact, i would not be surprised if they actually stole code from other devers on this site. Who's going to know where said block of code came from and since not a wide number of people have access to windows source means you and i are not going to find out if ms stole our code.
Moose
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JAAman
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
thats not true anyone can write a DVD driver its not that hard but you cannot write a VIDEO PLAYER
because the DVD video discs are encripted by the manufacturers and that has nothing to do with either trusted computing or the hardware manufacturers
the key has nothing to do with source or capabilities actually the key is probly different for each disc but the key is on the disc if you know haw to find and decript it
because the DVD video discs are encripted by the manufacturers and that has nothing to do with either trusted computing or the hardware manufacturers
the key has nothing to do with source or capabilities actually the key is probly different for each disc but the key is on the disc if you know haw to find and decript it
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JAAman
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
the DVD encription info is not availible but if you notice I said INTEL aparently you dont READ the message before replying!!
Intel has nothing to do with the DVD region encription in fact the hardware has nothing to do with the encription its what is placed ON the disc thats encripted not the disc itself this is entirely software requiring decription only to understand it not to fisically read it
NOTHING about trusted computing has ANYTHING to do with this!!
trusted computing is about looking the KERNEL so that viruses and worms and hackers cannot mess with your computer and steal information
commuication between devices WILL NOT CHANGE although some might be encripted it will be up to the software to decide that
OSdev is not a pain for MS, in fact MS works hard to support OSdev they are the second best company for OSdevers to work with (next to Intel) all info is availible free from them also and most of what they do is all based on clear open standards and they work hard to make it easier for OSdev
of course noone will give out these encription codes that would defeat the purpose of encripting it!!
Intel has nothing to do with the DVD region encription in fact the hardware has nothing to do with the encription its what is placed ON the disc thats encripted not the disc itself this is entirely software requiring decription only to understand it not to fisically read it
NOTHING about trusted computing has ANYTHING to do with this!!
trusted computing is about looking the KERNEL so that viruses and worms and hackers cannot mess with your computer and steal information
commuication between devices WILL NOT CHANGE although some might be encripted it will be up to the software to decide that
OSdev is not a pain for MS, in fact MS works hard to support OSdev they are the second best company for OSdevers to work with (next to Intel) all info is availible free from them also and most of what they do is all based on clear open standards and they work hard to make it easier for OSdev
of course noone will give out these encription codes that would defeat the purpose of encripting it!!
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Anton
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
Well, if you knew how to read, then you would notice that i did not said a find about Intel in the first place, you are the one how borught that question up.
>>in fact the hardware has nothing to do with the encription its what is
>>placed ON the disc thats encripted not the disc itself this is entirely
>>software requiring decription only to understand it not to fisically read it
This totaly wrong, the disk is encripted by the hardware:try to grab an iso image of the whole disk!(if you are right, then you should be able to do that, since the encription will be held in the is, right?) So, as i said, try to grab it:it will not work, trust me, SO, the encription is in the hardware, not software.
>>commuication between devices WILL NOT CHANGE although some might be
>>encripted it will be up to the software to decide that
Exactly, the same encription as between players and dvd readers. This key is(supposed to be) a BIG secret between the manufacturers of the dvd readers and players. And, if this key is know then you can read the data yourself.
>>trusted computing is about looking the KERNEL so that viruses and worms and
>>hackers cannot mess with your computer and steal information
And, how do you do that: the only way is to encript the connection with a secret key, wich will not be know to public, else any virus program will use the same key and this whole thing will be pointeless.(If you see some other way of securing information and at the same time make it public-please let me know, this is very interesting)
>>OSdev is not a pain for MS, in fact MS works hard to support OSdev they are
>>the second best company for OSdevers to work with (next to Intel) all info
>>is availible free from them also and most of what they do is all based on
>>clear open standards and they work hard to make it easier for OSdev
Then you are books under topics as undocumented Windows 2000(or Server, ....) are released not by Microsoft, but by some other companies? Why don't they release the API of the kernel(not win32!), and finaly, why don't they give sources of there kernel(schedualers, memory managers)?
//most of what they do is all based on clear open standards
Ye, i've seen there implementation of the sockets!
Anton.
>>in fact the hardware has nothing to do with the encription its what is
>>placed ON the disc thats encripted not the disc itself this is entirely
>>software requiring decription only to understand it not to fisically read it
This totaly wrong, the disk is encripted by the hardware:try to grab an iso image of the whole disk!(if you are right, then you should be able to do that, since the encription will be held in the is, right?) So, as i said, try to grab it:it will not work, trust me, SO, the encription is in the hardware, not software.
>>commuication between devices WILL NOT CHANGE although some might be
>>encripted it will be up to the software to decide that
Exactly, the same encription as between players and dvd readers. This key is(supposed to be) a BIG secret between the manufacturers of the dvd readers and players. And, if this key is know then you can read the data yourself.
>>trusted computing is about looking the KERNEL so that viruses and worms and
>>hackers cannot mess with your computer and steal information
And, how do you do that: the only way is to encript the connection with a secret key, wich will not be know to public, else any virus program will use the same key and this whole thing will be pointeless.(If you see some other way of securing information and at the same time make it public-please let me know, this is very interesting)
>>OSdev is not a pain for MS, in fact MS works hard to support OSdev they are
>>the second best company for OSdevers to work with (next to Intel) all info
>>is availible free from them also and most of what they do is all based on
>>clear open standards and they work hard to make it easier for OSdev
Then you are books under topics as undocumented Windows 2000(or Server, ....) are released not by Microsoft, but by some other companies? Why don't they release the API of the kernel(not win32!), and finaly, why don't they give sources of there kernel(schedualers, memory managers)?
//most of what they do is all based on clear open standards
Ye, i've seen there implementation of the sockets!
Anton.
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Anton
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
//thats not true anyone can write a DVD driver its not that hard but you
//cannot write a VIDEO PLAYER
As i said, try copying an iso of a DVD disk, from what you say, it will copy-nice try-it will not!, so the encription is in the hardware
//because the DVD video discs are encripted by the manufacturers and that
//has nothing to do with either trusted computing or the hardware manufacturers
Yes, it does, they will release an HDD, which will work only with special software writem by MS, just like VIDEO PLAYERS of DVD. A clear anology. So, you will not be able to write your own driver for a HDD just as you can't write a VIDEO PLAYER of DVD.
Anton.
PS. Once i too thought that dvd encription is just software, but i soon found out that i was wrong. Many people make this mistake, so i guess now you know, that the encriptionis in the hardware, not software.
PS. If every thing will be open, then this computing will not be trusted, at least not totaly, since viruses and worm,... can easyly be broken.
PS. All lock are eventualy broken!(At least if a goal is set, then ANY lock can be broken), so what's the point of this whole thing?!.
//cannot write a VIDEO PLAYER
As i said, try copying an iso of a DVD disk, from what you say, it will copy-nice try-it will not!, so the encription is in the hardware
//because the DVD video discs are encripted by the manufacturers and that
//has nothing to do with either trusted computing or the hardware manufacturers
Yes, it does, they will release an HDD, which will work only with special software writem by MS, just like VIDEO PLAYERS of DVD. A clear anology. So, you will not be able to write your own driver for a HDD just as you can't write a VIDEO PLAYER of DVD.
Anton.
PS. Once i too thought that dvd encription is just software, but i soon found out that i was wrong. Many people make this mistake, so i guess now you know, that the encriptionis in the hardware, not software.
PS. If every thing will be open, then this computing will not be trusted, at least not totaly, since viruses and worm,... can easyly be broken.
PS. All lock are eventualy broken!(At least if a goal is set, then ANY lock can be broken), so what's the point of this whole thing?!.
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JAAman
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
just because you cannot duplicate it doesnt mean it isnt in the software
the encription is different for each disc and is probably based on the disc serial number therefore copping the disc will produce a different serial number and a different encription key
MICROSOFT CANNOT make VIDEO PLAYERS!!!
if MS tryed to make a DVD video player they would be shut down and the people resposible would go to jail
the players can only be made by the movie studios!!! not microsoft and HDDs are ALREADY CAPABLE OF THIS in fact if you use XP-professional parts of your HDD are already encripted and you can encript anything you want very easily
and you CAN copy normal DVDs with no problem -- but not the specially-formatted DVD video discs
your last line doesnt make sense -- do you lock the door on your house when you leave? how about the car when you go into the store? why? if any lock can be broken (and of course it can)...
the encription is different for each disc and is probably based on the disc serial number therefore copping the disc will produce a different serial number and a different encription key
MICROSOFT CANNOT make VIDEO PLAYERS!!!
if MS tryed to make a DVD video player they would be shut down and the people resposible would go to jail
the players can only be made by the movie studios!!! not microsoft and HDDs are ALREADY CAPABLE OF THIS in fact if you use XP-professional parts of your HDD are already encripted and you can encript anything you want very easily
and you CAN copy normal DVDs with no problem -- but not the specially-formatted DVD video discs
your last line doesnt make sense -- do you lock the door on your house when you leave? how about the car when you go into the store? why? if any lock can be broken (and of course it can)...
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JAAman
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
1) encription is based on specific disc serial numbers (AFAIK) and therefore an while you CAN rip an ISO (and many people have done it --your burner will come with software that will do it) you cannot understand it
2) the win32 API _IS_ well documented (what you mean by not win32 is a mistery since win32 is the native kernel API) -- your probably refering to the news reports by ignorent people that speak of MS software using Undocumented "API"s to comunicate with the OS -- this isnt true and has absolutely NO evidence(except the people who say " their software work better than mine so they must cheat"
why should they give sources to the memory managers they have spent millions of dollars to develop? thats not supporting OSdev thats supporting pledgerism (and lack of innovation)what I ment by supporting OSdev was not writting it FOR you but providing resources and documentation for writting YOUR OWN OS -- and they have supported independent OSs with code and money(for things like .net and directX)
2) the win32 API _IS_ well documented (what you mean by not win32 is a mistery since win32 is the native kernel API) -- your probably refering to the news reports by ignorent people that speak of MS software using Undocumented "API"s to comunicate with the OS -- this isnt true and has absolutely NO evidence(except the people who say " their software work better than mine so they must cheat"
why should they give sources to the memory managers they have spent millions of dollars to develop? thats not supporting OSdev thats supporting pledgerism (and lack of innovation)what I ment by supporting OSdev was not writting it FOR you but providing resources and documentation for writting YOUR OWN OS -- and they have supported independent OSs with code and money(for things like .net and directX)
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Anton
RE:TCPA isn't all bad
1)
>therefore an while you CAN rip an ISO
Did you try it yourself(without cheat programs such as DVDDecipter ofcourse)? YOU can not do it. The ISO will to be copyied, if it does, then you have a pyrated DVD.
2)
>the win32 API _IS_ well documented-
I know, i asked not win32 api=the win32 api is not part of the kernel in sme sence, but a library which is written seperatly for each version of windows to make them compatible. The REAL kernel api in undocumented.
//why should they give sources to the memory managers they have spent millions
//of dollars to develop? thats not supporting OSdev thats supporting
//pledgerism (and lack of innovation)
It is not-maybe that's the way you think about it-,but for me source give proof that there is not cheating done. I could check all the statements of microsoft by reading the sources. And btw, do you know that there exsits things like copyright, so i would not be able to plegiate it.
//providing resources and documentation for writting
//YOUR OWN OS -- and they have supported independent OSs with code and money
//(for things like .net and directX)
I would not be surprised,=> so that .net and directx will spread, and all other inovations will die. Nice support of developers.
Anton.
>therefore an while you CAN rip an ISO
Did you try it yourself(without cheat programs such as DVDDecipter ofcourse)? YOU can not do it. The ISO will to be copyied, if it does, then you have a pyrated DVD.
2)
>the win32 API _IS_ well documented-
I know, i asked not win32 api=the win32 api is not part of the kernel in sme sence, but a library which is written seperatly for each version of windows to make them compatible. The REAL kernel api in undocumented.
//why should they give sources to the memory managers they have spent millions
//of dollars to develop? thats not supporting OSdev thats supporting
//pledgerism (and lack of innovation)
It is not-maybe that's the way you think about it-,but for me source give proof that there is not cheating done. I could check all the statements of microsoft by reading the sources. And btw, do you know that there exsits things like copyright, so i would not be able to plegiate it.
//providing resources and documentation for writting
//YOUR OWN OS -- and they have supported independent OSs with code and money
//(for things like .net and directX)
I would not be surprised,=> so that .net and directx will spread, and all other inovations will die. Nice support of developers.
Anton.